Exhibit J: Deposition of Diego Enrique De La Cruz
September 8, 2025
Smith’s Response in Opposition to Motion for Leave for Punitive Damages
Case No. 2024-L-005346
HTML transcription of the filed deposition. Original transcript page and line numbers are retained. Redactions remain redacted.
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Page 1
Back to contents1STATE OF ILLINOIS )
2) SS.
3COUNTY OF COOK )
4IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS
5COUNTY DEPARTMENT - LAW DIVISION
6DELBERT J. CHARLES, as
Independent )
7Administrator of the
Estate of ABNERD JOSEPH, )
8deceased,
Plaintiff, )
9vs. ) No. 2024 L 005346
10MESA DEVELOPMENT, LLC, )
11et al.,
Defendants. )
13The video-recorded discovery deposition
14of DIEGO ENRIQUE DE LA CRUZ, taken in the
15above-entitled cause, before GINA M. SYLVESTER,
16Certified Shorthand Reporter and Registered
17Professional Reporter, at 321 North Clark
18Street, Suite 900, Chicago, Illinois, on the
198th day of September, 2025, at the hour of
203:09 p.m., pursuant to notice.
23Reported By: Gina M. Sylvester, CSR, RPR
24License No: 084-004856
Page 2
Back to contents1APPEARANCES:
2ROMANUCCI & BLANDIN, LLC
3BY: MR. STEPHAN BLANDIN
4MS. ISABELLA MAZZANTI
5321 North Clark Street, Suite 900
6Chicago, Illinois 60654
7(312) 458-1000
8Sblandin@rblaw.net
9Representing the Plaintiff;
11SWEENEY SCHARKEY, LLC
12BY: MS. ERIN WENGER
13230 West Monroe Street, Suite 1500
14Chicago, Illinois 60606
15(312) 384-0500
16Ewenger@ssbpartners.com
17Representing Garrett M. Smith;
Page 3
Back to contents1APPEARANCES (Continued):
2LEWIS BRISBOIS BISGAARD & SMITH, LLP
3BY: MR. SCOTT C. BENTIVENGA
4550 West Adams Street, Suite 300
5Chicago, Illinois 60661
6(312) 345-1718
7Scott.Bentivenga@lewisbrisbois.com
8Representing Sudler & Company d/b/a
9Sudler Property Management and
10Legacy;
12DERATANY & KOSNER
13BY: MR. THOMAS STEWART
14MS. MILAN DOAN (Remote)
15221 North LaSalle Street, Suite 2200
16Chicago, Illinois 60601
17(312) 748-2985
18tstewart@lawinjury.com
20ALSO PRESENT:
21KELLY WOODS, Videographer.
Page 4
Back to contents1INDEX
2WITNESS EXAMINATION
3DIEGO ENRIQUE DE LA CRUZ
4BY MR. BLANDIN ................................ 06
5BY MR. BENTIVENGA ............................. 163
6BY MR. BLANDIN ................................ 168
7BY MR. STEWART ................................ 190
8BY MS. WEGNER ................................. 201
15EXHIBITS
16NUMBER MARKED
17Exhibit No. 1 ................................ 114
18Exhibit No. 2 ................................ 116
Page 5
Back to contents1THE VIDEOGRAPHER: we are going on the record
2at 3:09 p.m. on September 8th, 2025.
3could the court reporter please swear
4in the witness.
5THE COURT REPORTER: Can you please raise
6your right hand.
7(Witness sworn.)
8MR. BLANDIN: Good afternoon, Ricky. My name
9is Stephan Blandin. I represent the Estate of
10Abnerd Joseph. I'm going to be the one who's
11starting with the questions.
12If I ask a question that doesn't make
13sense, just let me know and I'll ask you a
14different one. If you want to hear it again,
15just let the court reporter know and she can
16repeat it if I don't remember it.
17It's not quite a normal conversation
18where we would interrupt and cut each other off.
19It's a question-and-answer format. So I'll try
20and -- even if you know right where I'm going,
21let me get the full question out before you
22answer. And even if I think I understand your
23answer, I'm going to do my best to let you
24answer before I ask you another question.
Page 6
Back to contents1If you want a break for any reason, let
2me know and we'll stop and we'll take a break.
3THE WITNESS: Okay.
4MR. BLANDIN: Do you have any questions
5before we get started?
6THE WITNESS: NO.
7MR. BLANDIN: All right. The other thing
8that's going to happen is you're going to -- at
9some point, you're going to say “uh-huh” or
10"uh-uh," because we all do, and the court
11reporter's going to say, what did you mean, and
12you'll have to say yes, no, or whatever the full
13appropriate answer is.
14All right. So why don't we get
15started?
16DIEGO ENRIQUE DE LA CRUZ,
17called as a witness herein, having been first
18duly sworn remotely via Zoom video
19teleconference, was examined and testified as
20follows:
21EXAMINATION
22BY MR. BLANDIN:
23Q. Can you state your full name for the
24record?
Page 7
Back to contents1A. Yes, my full name is Diego Enrique De
2La cruz.
3Q. And what do you go by?
4A. I go by Ricky.
5Q. And can you spell your last name?
6A. It's going to be D-E, space, L-A,
7space, C-R-U-Z.
8Q. Thank you.
9What is your date of birth?
10A. [REDACTED]
11Q. And what is your current home address?
12A. Address is [REDACTED]
13[REDACTED]
14Q. And how long have you lived there?
15A. I've lived there 24 years,
16Q. That's your family home?
17A. Yes.
18Q. And what I'm going to do is just go
19through some very background things. Please do
20not take offense at any of them. It's just
21standard, necessary questions.
22What is your highest level of formal
23education?
24A. High school education.
Page 8
Back to contents1Q. where did you go?
2A. East Leyden.
3Q. And did you graduate?
4A. Yes.
5Q. what year?
6A. 2016.
7Q. and have you been working since 2016?
8A. Yes.
9Q. were you ever in the military?
10A. NO.
11Q. Have you ever been convicted of any
12crime?
13A. NO.
14Q. And can you give me a brief summary of
15the different work you've done from 2016 up till
16now?
17A. Customer service, building maintenance,
18and security.
19Q. All right. So the customer service was
20when and where?
21A. Customer service was, I worked as a
22maintenance man cleaning up the building.
23Customer service was when I also worked as a
24front doorman for the facility greeting clients.
Page 9
Back to contents1Customer service involved me as a doorman with
2Hermitage. Customer service involved me with
3The Legacy. Security was with multiple security
4companies.
5Q. All right. So let me -- let me --
6let's just go through in chronologic order.
7So after graduating high school, where
8did you work?
9A. I worked with a temp agency, staffing.
10Q. And what did you do for them?
11A. I worked as a warehouse hand laborer.
12Q. and what was your next job?
13A. X-Sport Fitness, cleaning/front desk
14attendant.
15Q. And your next job?
16A. Security with Allied Universal.
17Q. And how long -- how old were you when
18you went to Allied?
19A. Twenty-one.
20Q. And how long did you work for Allied?
21A. On and off, nine months.
22Q. Were you armed or unarmed security?
23A. Mainly unarmed.
24Q. Were there times that you were armed?
Page 10
Back to contents1A. No.
2Q. All right. So were you a licensed
3security guard?
4A. Yes,
5Q. where did you obtain your license?
6A. I went to the school of The Guardian
7security group.
8Q. And when and where did you -- when and
9where was that?
10A. I don't know the exact location for The
11Guardian security group, but I went to the
12school in 2018.
13Q. And how long was the course?
14A. The course was, for me, six months. I
15had to retake the course.
16Q. And why is that?
17A. I was two points short of a perfect
18pass.
19Q. what do you mean "a perfect pass"?
20A. They took our written test -- in order
21for us to get a certified license, we had to
22take a written exam. I was two points down.
23Q. All right. So you -- so you had to
24repeat the course in order to get a passing
Page 11
Back to contents1grade?
2A. Yes.
3Q. And after you became licensed, for whom
4did you work?
5A. I worked for Allied security, then I
6worked for SOS Security.
7Q. And --
8A. Then I worked for Allied security
9again. Then I worked for -- I can't remember
10the name -- Advanced Security Solutions.
11Q. All right. And your initial stint with
12Allied, where did they assign you?
13A. They assigned me at warehouse locations
14primarily, and then loosely I worked at the
15Woodfield Mall.
16Q. what did you do at Woodfield?
17A. I did foot patrol, vehicle patrol,
18camera monitoring, store access and check point
19access.
20Q. And how long did you do that work?
21A. Four months.
22Q. And then you went to SOS?
23A. Yes.
24Q. what year was that?
Page 12
Back to contents1A. That was 2019.
2Q. And where did they assign you?
3A. I worked at a warehouse where they
4shipped and received physical checks.
5Q. Physical checks?
6A. The run of the place was they sent in
7stubs for their location and sent out the stubs
8to the next location.
9Q. And how long were you there?
10A. Three months.
11Q. And your next stint, was it back with
12Allied?
13A. Yes.
14Q. And how long was that second stint?
15A. Two to three months, I believe.
16Q. And where did they assign you?
17A. They assigned me to another warehouse
18at -- I don't remember the warehouse name now.
19Q. That's fine.
20All right. And then your -- your last
21security position was with Allied something?
22A. Yes, Allied Universal.
23Q. And where did they assign you?
24A. I was working as a front desk security
Page 13
Back to contents11 for Weber Grill in -- near Itasca, Elk Grove.
22 Q. And what did that involve?
33 A. It involved me doing temperature
44 checks, sign-ins, mask mandates, and access for
55 the building.
6Q. That was during COVID?
7A. COVID. That was during the prime time
8of COVID.
9Q. And how long were you there?
10A. I was there for seven months.
11Q. Okay. Were you -- so you were employed
12by Allied Universal and they assigned you to one
13of their clients?
14A. Yes.
15Q. And after that, by whom were you
16employed?
17A. After that, I was employed by the
18Hermitage at 70 west Huron.
19Q. That's a residential condominium?
20A. Yes.
21Q. I lost the address.
22A. It's 70 west Huron.
23Q. 70 West Huron. So that's downtown.
24And how many units -- how many --
Page 14
Back to contents1strike that.
2How many floors, stories is that
3building?
4A. IT do not remember.
5Q. Is it a high-rise?
6A. It is a high-rise.
7Q. Is it similar to the millennium?
8A. A lot shorter, but yes.
9Q. Okay. And were you -- were you
10employed by the building itself, the Hermitage?
11A. Yes.
12Q. Were you -- was it a similar situation
13where you were trained and supervised by a
14property manager?
15A. Not the property manager, but the head
16doorman, yes.
17Q. So do you know who the property manager
18was for the Hermitage?
19A. Yes.
20Q. Who was that?
21A. That was Deborah -- not -- no, Lori.
22Lori -- I do not remember her last name.
23Q. Was it -- was it -- was Sudler the
24property manager for the building?
Page 15
Back to contents11 A. NO, not that one.
22 Q. who was the property management
33 company?
44 A. I don't remember at this time.
55 Q. Okay. And your position at Hermitage,
6it was front door staff?
7A. Yes. But I was also a seasonal
8custodian.
9Q. And as a -- as a front door staff, were
10you a member of a union?
11A. Yes.
12Q. Which union was that?
13A. SIEU Local 1.
14Q. Did you receive any union training?
15A. NO.
16Q. Did you receive any safety or security
17training through the union or through Hermitage?
18A. Through the Hermitage.
19Q. Did they have you attend courses or
20classes?
21A. NO.
22Q. what was the training that the
23Hermitage provided you?
24A. The head doorman would provide me with
Page 16
Back to contents1training for handling fire panels for emergency
2calls.
3Q. Do you remember his name?
4A. His first name was Oscar.
5Q. Do you remember his last name?
6A. I do not.
7Q. How long did you stay at Hermitage?
8A. Two and a half years.
9Q. And what were those years?
10A. Two -- it started at the end of 2019
11and then I stayed there until twenty -- 2023 or
12twenty-twenty -- yeah, 2023.
13Q. So the shooting involving Abnerd Joseph
14was September of 2023. Does that help you at
15all with when you came over to The Legacy?
16A. when I came over to The Legacy, I came
17in as a part-time worker, and I started during
18the second or third month of the 2023 year.
19Q. All right. So February or March of
20"23?
21A. Yes,
22Q. All right. And you would have been at
23the Hermitage up until that time?
24A. Yes.
Page 17
Back to contents1Q. Did you receive -- I know you don't
2remember the name of the -- of the property
3management company for the Hermitage, but did
4they provide you with any training as a front
5doorman?
6A. Not the property management.
7Q. You mentioned that there was a -- that
8Oscar, the front doorman, provided you with some
9training?
10A. Yes, the head doorman and the -- my
11coworker doorman provided me with the on-the-job
12training.
13Q. were you given any policies or
14procedures while you worked at the Hermitage?
15A. Not physical copies of it, no.
16Q. were you shown or instructed on what
17the company's policies and procedures were for
18safety and security?
19A. Not given or shown, but they were
20verbally told for me.
21Q. Okay. Do you know, ballpark, how many
22folks lived at the Hermitage?
23A. Not by ballpark. There was a lot. If
24I -- I believe the units for the Hermitage was
Page 18
Back to contents1around either 27 or 28 floors.
2Q. And do you know how many -- how many
3units were on a floor?
4A. Ten units per floor.
5Q. And do you know how many bedrooms were
6in the units?
7A. There were units that were studios,
8one-bedrooms and only a few two-bedrooms.
9Q. Did more people live in the Hermitage
10or live at Legacy --
11A. More --
12Q. -- 60 East Monroe?
13A. More people lived at The Legacy than
14the Hermitage.
15Q. All right. why did you leave the
16Hermitage and go to The Legacy?
17A. I was looking to change buildings for
18timing schedule and -- no, that's pretty much
19it, timing schedule.
20Q. You mean because of the shift you were
21assigned?
22A. Yes.
23Q. What shift were you working at
24Hermitage?
Page 19
Back to contents1A. I was the split shiftman. I worked
2three days for the morning and two days during
3the afternoon.
4Q. Okay. And what did you want? what
5were you looking for?
6A. Mornings.
7Q. And when you started at The Legacy, how
8did you get that job?
9A. I was a part-time and fill-in doorman.
10Q. How -- how did you apply or find out
11about the job?
12A. There was a man in the Hermitage
13building, his name is Louis, he came from The
14Legacy, he messaged Deborah saying how I have a
15doorman here who's looking to change buildings.
16That's how I got the contact with The Legacy.
17Q. And that's Deborah Romero?
18A. Yes.
19Q. And Deborah Romero is the property
20manager at The Legacy currently and she was back
21in 2023 when you started?
22A. Yes.
23Q. And Deborah Romero hired you?
24A. Yes.
Page 20
Back to contents1Q. And how long did you work as a doorman
2at the -- at The Legacy?
3A. Eleven months.
4Q. I want to go through -- I want to go
5through some of your training at The Legacy.
6My understanding is that The Legacy has
7an emergency communication system. Are you
8familiar with that?
9A. I do not remember.
10Q. Are you -- do you know what an
11annunciator panel is?
12A. I don't remember for that location.
13Q. Okay. Are you still working at The
14Legacy?
15A. I am not.
16Q. when did you leave The Legacy?
17A. I left The Legacy that -- during -- I
18want to say the start of 2024.
19Q. January of 2024?
20A. I can't give an exact time for when I
21left, but it was --
22Q. Were you there for more or less than a
23year?
24A. Less than a year.
Page 21
Back to contents1Q. And why did you leave?
2A. Looking for a new career.
3Q. Where did you go?
4A. I went back into the field of
5maintenance and custodial work.
6Q. And where did you get your next job?
7A. I first worked for a cleaning company,
8ABM, but that did not plan out well. That was
9only for three days.
10Q. And what happened there?
11A. The facility that we were going to
12clean for did not follow through for its
13contract. So they brought us in saying we had a
14job, but the job did not follow through.
15Q. Okay. And where did you go after ABM?
16A. For three months, I worked primarily at
17Uber Eats, deliveryman.
18Q. And where did you go after that?
19A. I went to the School District 87.
20Q. Is that -- is that a high school or a
21middle school or a grammar school?
22A. It's a special school where it goes
23from intermediate to high school.
24Q. So middle school through high school?
Page 22
Back to contents1A. Yes.
2Q. And what town is that in?
3A. Berkeley.
4Q. Berkeley. I don't know where Berkeley
5is.
6A. It's in -- well, the town is Berkeley,
7but --
8Q. What's it near?
9A. It is near Melrose Park.
10Q. Okay. Got it.
11And when did you start working there?
12A. I started working there the third month
13of 2024,
14Q. And are you still there?
15A. Yes,
16Q. And what do you do there?
17A. I am a custodian for the building. I
18clean tables, remove trash, mop floors.
19Q. How do you like that job?
20A. It's very nice.
21Q. And do you have, like, a set shift that
22you work?
23A. Oh, yes. I work as a second shiftman
24now.
Page 23
Back to contents1Q. And are you in a union?
2A. Yes.
3Q. What -- what union?
4A. I don't know the name for the union.
5Q. Okay. All right. Let's go back to The
6Legacy, the roughly 11 months that you worked at
7The Legacy.
8Now, we started out by asking you about
9something called an annunciator panel. It's an
10emergency communication system, as I understand
11it, that's used during emergencies, fires,
12tornadoes, active shooters, those kinds of
13things. Does that refresh your recollection?
14A. It does not.
15Q. Did you receive any training on the
16emergency communication system at The Legacy?
17A. I will say no because I don't know what
18that is that you're saying.
19Q. When you worked as a doorman at The
20Legacy, what shift did you work?
21A. I worked as a morning shiftman, first
22shift.
23Q. And what are the hours, roughly?
24A. 6:00 to 2:00 or 7:00 to 3:00. I don't
Page 24
Back to contents1remember.
2Q. And the second shift at The Legacy
3would be when?
4A. From 3:00 to 11:00, I believe.
5Q. And the third shift?
6A. From 11:00 till 6:00 or -- yeah.
7Q. while you were at The Legacy, did they
8have a head doorman?
9A. Hm? Sorry.
10Q. When you were at The Legacy, was there
11somebody who was designated as the head doorman?
12A. Yes.
13Q. who was that person?
14A. His name was Adrian.
15Q. Do you remember Adrian's last name?
16A. I do not.
17Q. while you worked at The Legacy, did you
18receive any training as to how to communicate
19with the residents in the event of an emergency?
20A. No.
21Q. while you worked at The Legacy, did you
22receive any training as to what you were
23supposed to do in the event that someone broke
24into the building?
Page 25
Back to contents1A. NO.
2Q. Did you receive any training from The
3Legacy as to what you were to do if there was a
4domestic disturbance?
5A. NO.
6Q. Did you receive any training from The
7Legacy of what your duties were if there was an
8active shooter in the building?
9A. NO.
10Q. Did you receive any training from The
11Legacy, if there was a tornado or a severe
12storm, how to communicate with the residents?
13A. NO.
14Q. Did you receive any training from The
15Legacy as to what to do in the event that there
16was a fire in the building?
17A. Yes.
18Q. What were you supposed to do in the
19event there was a fire in the building?
20A. I was told to pull the fire alarm on
21the wall and then to go to the fire panel and
22press the alarm button.
23Q. Were you given any additional training
24as to what to do in the event of a fire?
Page 26
Back to contents1A. I do not remember.
2Q. Okay. Same type of question for
3terrorism. In the event that the building was
4struck by terrorists, were you given any type of
5training?
6A. NO.
7Q. Were you given any type of training as
8to how to communicate with residents about
9leaving, evacuating the building or staying in
10their units?
11A. NO.
12Q. were you given any type of safety
13training by The Legacy?
14A. NO.
15Q. Were you told or instructed by Deborah
16Romero that as a doorman at The Legacy, that you
17were responsible for the residents’ safety and
18security?
19A. Yes.
20Q. Did she provide you with any safety or
21security training?
22A. NO.
23Q. Did anyone at The Legacy provide you
24with any resident safety or security training?
Page 27
Back to contents1A. Yes.
2Q. whom?
3A. The head doorman, Adrian.
4Q. Okay. what did that training consist
5of for resident safety?
6A. It consisted of access to the building,
7documenting visitors/guests, contacting the
8units to get prior authorization if said
9visitors or guests were not inputted into the
10system, and who to and who not to allow
11upstairs.
12Q. were you given any training from The
13Legacy by Adrian or anyone as to what you were
14to do for the residents' safety in the event
15that there was an emergency?
16A. Yes.
17Q. What training were you provided?
18A. I was provided for the safety and
19wellness check of -- training for if a tenant,
20resident, owner, or renter did not respond to
21outside families attempting to contact them but
22without response.
23Q. Okay. You were told that you may need
24to make safety and wellness checks of a resident
Page 28
Back to contents1in the event that the family was not able to
2contact a resident?
3A. Yes.
4Q. were you given any other training as to
5what to do in the event of an emergency for
6resident safety?
7A. No.
8Q. Specifically, were you trained under
9what circumstances you were supposed to notify
10911?
11A. Can you repeat?
12Q. Sure. 911 is the emergency that we all
13are familiar with for police, fire, or other
14emergencies, and I'm trying to find out if The
15Legacy provided you with any specific training
16as to when you should call 911?
17A. Yes.
18Q. And what training were you provided?
19A. Mostly verbal. Adrian instructed me
20that if there were any situations that seemed to
21lead to the threat of the building, to the
22threat of the tenants or to the disruption of
23the building, when to call 911.
24Q. Did he give you any specific examples?
Page 29
Back to contents1A. Specific examples that we mainly dealt
2with were intrusions in the main lobby, a rowdy
3guest that came from the streets, an uninvited
4guest that came from the street.
5Q. The Legacy, 60 East Monroe, is located
6on Monroe between Michigan Avenue and Wacker --
7excuse me, Wabash, correct?
8A. Correct.
9Q. Where -- was it -- was it a common
10occurrence to have unwanted or unpermitted
11guests attempt to enter The Legacy?
12A. Yes.
13Q. How often did that happen while you
14worked there? was it a daily occurrence?
15A. I would say not -- not unoften or
16often, in between.
17Q. And I'm trying to break that down to
18get -- because different people might have
19different understandings --
20A. Right.
21Q. -- as to what that means. Can you give
22me an approximation?
23A. Yes, let me think.
24In one week of, like, my workweek, I
Page 30
Back to contents1would say two, three times, unwanted guests
2would wander into our lobby.
3Q. And that would be during your shift?
4A. Yes.
5Q. And what were you trained and
6instructed to do in that circumstance?
7A. In our training, we were told do not
8let anyone that you do not recognize past the
9front desk. Ask them to please wait, identify
10yourself so that we can notify a renter, owner,
11or to understand if you are permitted or banned
12from the building.
13Q. Were there instances -- were there
14times where people would get past you and get up
15into the building?
16A. For me, no.
17Q. While -- during the 11 months that you
18worked at The Legacy, do you know of times where
19unpermitted guests came into the building and
20got past the front desk?
21A. Yes.
22Q. How often did that happen?
23A. There was one documented case where it
24happened.
Page 31
Back to contents1Q. In the -- in the 11 months that you
2worked there, there was one case. Do you know
3the circumstances?
4A. The unwanted guest gained access to the
5roof.
6Q. To the roof? Do you know where they
7came in from?
8A. They walked through the front door.
9Q. Do you know how they got in?
10A. It was during a party event where the
11street of Wabash and the party area for
12Millennium Park flooded through our front doors.
13Q. So aside from that one party where
14somebody snuck in, were there other times for --
15that you know of that you worked there that
16people snuck in, actually got into the building?
17A. During the times when I worked, I made
18sure I did not allow any unwanted guests to
19enter.
20Q. Okay.
21A. And there were times when they
22attempted, but did not get past the desk.
23Q. what would you do?
24A. I'd tell them to leave.
Page 32
Back to contents1Q. And would they always leave?
2A. Yes, but with attitude.
3Q. Image that.
4A. Chicago.
5Q. I imagine there was quite a bit of
6attitude.
7Did you ever have to call the police?
8A. NO.
9Q. while you worked there, did you ever
10hear of other front door staff that had to call
11the police?
12A. NO.
13Q. The --
14MR. BENTIVENGA: You're talking about for
15that situation, right?
16THE WITNESS: Prior -- sorry.
17MR. BENTIVENGA: Go ahead.
18MR. BLANDIN: We'll do it both ways.
19BY MR. BLANDIN:
20Q. So you're saying you never had to call
21the police and never heard of a time where the
22police had to be called because somebody was
23trying to sneak in, right?
24A. Oh, my -- my mistake. The one time was
Page 33
Back to contents1for the one documented case, yes.
2Q. The police were called?
3A. Yes.
4Q. What happened?
5A. The police escorted the two individuals
6out of the building.
7Q. Okay. Do you know who was on shift?
8A. No, I don't remember.
9Q. The building manager brought it to your
10attention and the other front door's attention
11that this kind of thing can't happen again, is
12that why you know about it?
13A. Yes.
14Q. Okay. Aside from that one occasion
15where somebody snuck into a party and the police
16were called, are there any other times or
17occasions where you had to call the police?
18A. No.
19Q. And do you know of any other times or
20occasions where someone had to call the police
21at The Legacy?
22A. For the one documented case, yes, that
23was the one time I heard the police were called.
24Q. You're -- again, you're referring to
Page 34
Back to contents1the party --
2A. Yes.
3Q. -- where people snuck in and got up to
4the party?
5Aside from that, any other times where
6somebody had to call the police because of any
7type of an emergency situation at The Legacy
8that you're aware of?
9A. Yes, but it was for a wellness check.
10Q. Okay. Aside from the wellness check,
11any other occasions?
12A. NO.
13Q. Did Deborah Romero provide you with any
14training or direction as to what you, as a
15doorman at The Legacy, were supposed to do after
16the police were notified that there was an
17emergency in the building?
18A. Yes.
19Q. what did she say to you?
20A. She said to document it in our shift
21logs and to send an e-mail to her explaining the
22situation that has happened.
23Q. Did she provide you with any other
24training?
Page 35
Back to contents1A. NO.
2Q. Did she provide you with any direction
3as to whether you should go and investigate or
4encounter or assess the situation before the
5police arrived?
6A. Yes.
7Q. What did she tell you?
8A. To make the calls if there is a
9disturbance -- if there's a noise complaint, to
10call and see what's going on, to examine the
11cameras to see what we can have as a visual.
12Q. You're telling me about a noise
13complaint from a resident, you would be told by
14Deborah Romero to investigate or access and look
15at cameras, correct?
16A. Yes.
17Q. I'm not talking about that. I'm
18talking about training where Deborah Romero said
19to you, in the event that a resident calts the
20police or you have to call the police, did she
21provide you with any direction or training as to
22what you were to do in that situation, whether
23you were to wait for the police or to go and
24assess and investigate?
Page 36
Back to contents1MR. BENTIVENGA: Just going to object to the
2form of the question. I think it depends on the
3circumstances, but you haven't provided any
4circumstances.
5But go ahead, you can answer, if you
6can.
7THE WITNESS: No opinion?
8MR. BENTIVENGA: No, it's up to you.
9THE WITNESS: Oh. She said -- I don't
10believe she said anything to me about that.
11BY MR. BLANDIN:
12Q. Okay. And to be clear, what you're
13telling me is that Deborah Romero did not ever
14tell you what you were supposed to do after you
15contacted the police or were notified that the
16police were contacted because of an emergency in
17the building; is that correct?
18A. Yes.
19Q. And the reason I'm breaking it down
20like this is one of the issues in the case is
21whether the doormen received training from
22Deborah Romero as to whether or not they should
23go and investigate after the police were called
24about an emergency or whether they were to stay
Page 37
Back to contents1at the front desk.
2Did you receive training from her one
3way or the other as to what you were supposed to
4do in that situation?
5A. In that situation, no.
6Q. Okay. Did the front doorman -- the
7head doorman, Adrian, did he provide you with
8any training as to what you were supposed to do
9after the police were notified of a -- that
10there was an emergency in the building as to
11whether you should stay put at the -- at the
12desk and stay in a place of safety or whether
13you should go and investigate the emergency?
14A. Yes.
15Q. What did Adrian train you?
16A. He trained me for scenarios that
17involved us -- if the emergency involved gaining
18access into the unit, if someone called claiming
19they heard someone fall, they smelled smoke,
20that we should go see or try to speak to the
21emergency, check for that.
22Q. You're telling me that Adrian trained
23you that if there was a resident who notified
24the front desk, hey, I smell smoke or I heard
Page 38
Back to contents1someone fall, in those situations, you're
2supposed to go and investigate; is that
3accurate?
4A. Yes.
5Q. I'm talking about a different
6situation, a situation where a resident has
7called the police and then tells you, I've
8called the police, there's an emergency on the
948th floor or the 29th floor.
10Did Adrian instruct you as to what you
11were supposed to do in those situations, whether
12you're supposed to stay put at the front desk or
13go and investigate?
14MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
15foundation.
16You can answer, if you can.
17THE WITNESS: No.
18BY MR. BLANDIN:
19Q. He did not provide you with that
20training; is that accurate?
21A. Yes.
22Q. Did anybody at The Legacy or Sudler or
23anybody at 60 East Monroe provide you with that
24type of training?
Page 39
Back to contents1A. NO.
2Q. Had you received that knowledge or that
3training from any source before you went to work
4at The Legacy?
5A. Before I worked at The Legacy?
6Q. Yeah. I know you told me that you had
7-- you worked at the Hermitage and that you had
8some training on the job from their front
9doorman, and I'm trying to find out now if any
10of that training provided you with information
11as to what you were supposed to do?
12A. Yes, the training mainly consisted of
13calling the police, contacting the floor that
14made the complaint to hear more of the situation
15that was going on, to assess what the situation
16may or may not be.
17Q. So when you worked at the Hermitage --
18and I've forgotten the fellow's name, the lead
19doorman. Oscar?
20A. Oscar.
21Q. Did Oscar tell you, Ricky, if you get a
22call from a resident that they've called the
23cops because there's an emergency going on, did
24Oscar tell you what you were supposed to do in
Page 40
Back to contents1that situation?
2A. Yes. At the Hermitage, it was made
3clear stay at the front desk, continue -- if the
4tenant has called 911, we will continue to call
5911 if they have not arrived, or from the time
6they expect, continue to call until someone
7shows up.
8Q. That was the training that you had from
9the Hermitage; is that correct?
10A. Yes.
11Q. Were you -- were you working -- I know
12you weren't there on the shift when the shooting
13happened, but were you still working as a
14doorman during that time period back in
15September of 2023?
16A. Yes.
17Q. After the shooting, did you meet with
18the other doorman and Deborah Romero in a
19discussion to determine what happened?
20A. They did inform me that an incident did
21happen, but they did not go into specifics at
22the time.
23Q. Did Deborah Romero or any of the other
24staff from The Legacy or Sudler ever sit down
Page 41
Back to contents1with you and the other doormen in an attempt to
2come up with a -- to inform you about the events
3that occurred to make sure that you were aware
4of them?
5A. Yes.
6Q. what were you told?
7A. I was told that there was an incident
8involving one of our tenants and there was a
9shooting afterwards and that one of our doormen
10were injured.
11Q. were you told anything else?
12A. At the time, no.
13Q. Later on, were you told anything else?
14A. Yes.
15Q. What were you told?
16A. I was told later on that it was the --
17I cannot remember the tenant's name, the
18deceased that was causing the situation.
19Q. You're talking about Abnerd Joseph?
20A. Yes.
21Q. Who told you that?
22A. It was my coworker, Joseph.
23Q. Joseph?
24A. Joseph or Joe.
Page 42
Back to contents1Q. Jonah?
2A. NO, not Jonah. Joe -- I do not
3remember his name.
4Q. what was his job?
5A. He was also the doorman.
6Q. Okay. So the initial -- that first
7conversation where Deborah told you about --
8that there was an incident that took place and a
9resident was shot, how long after the -- the
10shooting, how Jong after September 14th was
11that?
12A. The day after it happened.
13Q. So the 15th?
14A. Yes.
15Q. And then Joe, the other doorman, when
16did that conversation happen?
17A. He informed me as we were changing
18shifts for the day.
19Q. which day?
20A. The next day after it happened.
21Q. The 15th also?
22A. The 15th or the 16th. I don't
23remember.
24Q. Okay. Did you have any conversations
Page 43
Back to contents1with Deborah Romero or the other staff in an
2attempt to try and make sure that -- that the
3events that unfolded on the night of the 14th
4would not happen again?
5MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
6foundation.
7Go ahead, you can answer, if you can.
8THE WITNESS: No, we did not discuss
9anything.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. Was there any discussion with Deborah
12Romero or the staff about steps or procedures
13that could be taken to prevent the shooting from
14occurring?
15MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
16foundation.
17But go ahead, you can answer.
18THE WITNESS: I do not remember.
19BY MR. BLANDIN:
20Q. Was there any discussion with the
21doormen, Deborah Romero, or the staff about
22whether Jonah Nena should have left the desk and
23went on the elevator up to the 48th floor?
24THE WITNESS: Can I state no opinion?
Page 44
Back to contents1MR. BENTIVENGA: He's asked you whether there
2was any discussion of that.
3THE WITNESS: Oh, any discussion.
4MR. BENTIVENGA: Right? Is that your
5question?
6THE WITNESS: I see. Yes, there were
7discussions.
8BY MR. BLANDIN:
9Q. Tell me about those.
10A. The discussions were between the fellow
11door staff whether or not Jonah should or should
12not have gone upstairs.
13Q. And what was said and by whom?
14A. It was with my coworker, Warner, Dave,
15Joe, Adrian, like, we were all discussing should
16he or should he have not gone upstairs.
17Q. Okay. And do you remember those
18conversations?
19A. I do not.
20Q. Okay. Separate and apart from you guys
21talking amongst yourselves, did management, the
22assistant property manager, the property
23manager, did anybody sit down with the doormen
24and go over with you when and when you should
Page 45
Back to contents1not leave the front door to go up in that type
2of emergency situation?
3MR. BENTIVENGA: Let me just object because
4there's no time associated with your question,
5whether it's before or after the event.
6MR. BLANDIN: Well, I thought we were pretty
7clear, but I'll do it again.
8BY MR. BLANDIN:
9Q. You're telling me that those
10conversations never happened before the
11shooting, right?
12A. Before the shooting, yes.
13Q. And now we're talking about after the
14shooting, after you found out Abnerd Joseph was
15shot and killed, did Deborah Romero or any of
16the other staff from Sudler or The Legacy sit
17down with you and the other doormen and say
18anything like, we're trying to evaluate and make
19sure that you doormen receive the training and
20direction that you deserve as to when you should
21leave your front desk and go up and encounter an
22emergency situation and when you need to stay at
23your front desk? Did you have any of that type
24of training from Deborah Romero after the
Page 46
Back to contents1shooting?
2A. Yes.
3Q. How long after the shooting?
4A. I do not remember.
5Q. was it the same week? Same month?
6A. Same month.
7Q. what did she say to you?
8A. She said that they were putting
9together a plan for when these situations
10happened and that -- she gave us a packet for
11explaining emergency situations.
12Q. And the emergency situation that
13presented itself on the night of the shooting,
14was that contained in those examples?
15A. I do not remember what's in the
16packets.
17Q. Did she just hand you a packet of
18information, or did she sit down and attempt to
19explain to you and the other doormen what you
20should do to prevent the Abnerd Joseph type of
21situation from resulting in a fatality?
22MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object to
23the form and the foundation of that question.
24That's much different than just training.
Page 47
Back to contents1You've now added in a whole set of
2circumstances.
3But if you can answer it as it's
4stated, go ahead.
5THE WITNESS: I do remember the door staff,
6we all were sat down and there was a discussion
7for the training. She did -- verbally spoke
8with us and she also gave us the packets. I
9don't remember the discussion that was had,
10though.
11BY MR. BLANDIN:
12Q. What I'm focussing on is the very
13specific topic of whether Deborah Romero told
14you and the other doormen once the police are
15called, and you know the police were called, do
16not leave your desk. Did she ever tell you that
17after the shooting?
18A. She did not.
19Q. Did you and the other doormen talk
20about that after the shooting?
21A. Yes.
22Q. Did you bring that to the attention of
23Deborah Romero or the assistant property
24manager?
Page 48
Back to contents1A. Sorry, can you repeat?
2Q. So here's the picture that I have in my
3head and I'm looking for you to tell me if I'm
4right or wrong, the doormen are sitting around,
5you guys are talking, hey, should he have gone
6or not gone, what do we do in this situation; is
7that generally right?
8A. Yes.
9Q. And then Deborah sits the group of you,
10the doormen, down to go over what should be done
11and what should not be done going forward; is
12that part accurate?
13A. Yes.
14Q. And the topic of once the police are
15called, whether you go and investigate or you
16stay at your desk, you're telling me Deborah
17never brought that up?
18MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object
19because I think that misstates his testimony.
20But go ahead, you can answer.
21THE WITNESS: I cannot remember what she said
22about that.
23BY MR. BLANDIN:
24Q. Okay. Did -- the topic of whether you.
Page 49
Back to contents1guys are supposed to stay at your desk after the
2police are called or leave and go and
3investigate, did that get resolved after the --
4the shooting?
5A. NO,
6Q. why not?
7A. I--
8MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
9foundation.
10But go ahead, you can answer.
11THE WITNESS: I don't remember the
12discussions we had at the time. I'm trying to
13think.
14BY MR. BLANDIN:
15Q. So what I'm -- what I'm trying to get
16clarity on is it seems to me the doormen are
17aware that this is an issue and that you sit
18down with the property manager, and does it get
19brought up by the doormen with the property
20manager in this meeting?
21A. Yes.
22Q. And how was that handled?
23A. We discussed about the situation that
24did happened. we discussed procedures for how
Page 50
Back to contents1to handle said situations.
2Q. Okay. And was -- did Deborah say that
3Jonah did the right thing by leaving his desk
4and going up and encountering Abnerd Joseph, or
5did she say that he did the wrong thing and
6shouldn't have left his desk?
7A. She said Jonah felt comfortable going
8upstairs.
9Q. And that was permitted because he felt
10comfortable?
11A. He felt comfortable going upstairs to
12investigate.
13Q. After the police were called that there
14was an emergency and Deborah said that was okay?
15A. Deborah said that -- what did she say?
16I don't remember what she said about that.
17Q. I recognize you may not recall the
18details of what she said, but I'm trying to get
19the takeaway of after you left that meeting, did
20you have a clear understanding as to what you
21and the other doormen were supposed to do once
22the police were called and told about an
23emergency, whether you were supposed to stay at
24your desk under all circumstances, or whether
Page 51
Back to contents1there were some circumstances where it was okay
2to go up and encounter the hazard?
3A. I'm trying to remember.
4There were discussions about what was
5possible if we felt comfortable with potentially
6investigating.
7Q. Okay. So -- so even after the
8shooting, even after the 14th, Deborah Romero
9was -- was talking with the doormen and telling
10the doorman -- doormen that if you feel
11comfortable going to investigate, you can leave
12your front door position and go and investigate
13even when the police have been called because of
14the emergency?
15A. If we felt comfortable.
16Q. Then it would be okay?
17MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object. It's been
18asked and answered now.
19But go ahead.
20THE WITNESS: Let me think.
21If we felt comfortable, yes.
22BY MR. BLANDIN:
23Q. All right. So Deborah was putting it
24back on the doormen, saying, doormen, if you're
Page 52
Back to contents1comfortable -- by the way, there were doorwomen,
2too -- door staff, if you feel comfortable after
3the police have been called about an emergency,
4it's okay for you to go and investigate; is that
5accurate?
6MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection; asked and
7answered several times now.
8But go ahead, you can answer it again.
9THE WITNESS: It -- I will say yes.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. Okay. So she was leaving the decision
12up to the door staff as to whether to go and
13investigate a hazard after the police were
14notified, after 911 was called?
15A. Yes.
16Q. Okay. Did she give you any reason as
17to why they didn’t just have a blanket rule that
18once the police are called, you cannot leave the
19front desk and go to a place of danger, that
20you're supposed to wait for the police? was
21that discussed at all?
22MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to the form and
23foundation of that question.
24But go ahead, you can answer.
Page 53
Back to contents1THE WITNESS: I will say no.
2BY MR. BLANDIN:
3Q. Were you -- were you trained and
4instructed by Deborah Romero or anybody at The
5Legacy as to what you were supposed to do if you
6were notified that someone was attempting to
7break into a resident's unit?
8A. NO.
9Q. Were you trained and instructed as to
10what you were supposed to do if there was a
11physical threat from one resident to another
12resident?
13A. Yes.
14Q. What were you supposed to do?
15A. Contact the police and inform them that
16there was a now physical threat being
17potentially given.
18Q. And were you told to go and do anything
19after you called the police, or were you told to
20stay put?
21MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection; asked and
22answered numerous times now.
23Go ahead, you can answer.
24THE WITNESS: NO.
Page 54
Back to contents1BY MR. BLANDIN:
2Q. Okay. Did you receive any -- any
3training about what to do in the event that a
4resident was having a mental health crisis?
5A. NO.
6Q. Were you -- were you told what to look
7for to identify a mental health crisis?
8A. NO.
9Q. Were you given any direction or
10training in how to deescalate, calm down a
11potentially hazardous conflict with a resident?
12MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
13foundation.
14You can answer, if you can.
15THE WITNESS: NO.
16BY MR. BLANDIN:
17Q. Okay. Were you told what to do in the
18event that a resident was running around acting
19crazy, pounding on doors?
20A. NO.
21Q. Were you ever told or instructed that
22you were to protect residents by physically
23intervening to protect a resident?
24MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection to form and
Page 55
Back to contents1foundation. Under what circumstances?
2MR. BLANDIN: Any.
3THE WITNESS: NO.
4BY MR. BLANDIN
5Q. Did you receive any training or
6direction from The Legacy or Deborah Romero and
7her staff that you should never bring residents
8back to a place of danger or into a hazardous
9situation?
10MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection to form and
11foundation and lacks detail.
12But go ahead, you can answer, if you
13can.
14THE WITNESS: NO.
15BY MR. BLANDIN:
16Q. Were you aware that -- that Garrett
17Smith, one of the residents of the building,
18told Jonah that he had a gun with him when they
19went up to encounter Abnerd Joseph?
20MS. WEGNER: Objection; foundation.
21THE WITNESS: I don't remember.
22BY MR. BLANDIN:
23Q. Did you hear about that?
24A. I will say no.
Page 56
Back to contents1Q. So what happened is Jonah gave a
2deposition that he was aware that Garrett Smith
3had a gun when he and several other residents
4went into the elevator back up to go to the 49th
5floor.
6MS. WEGNER: Just for clarification, 48th
7floor, Stephan.
8MR. BLANDIN: 48th floor. Thank you. I'll
9probably do that every time.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. Were you aware of any of that until I
12just said it?
13A. Sorry, can you rephrase?
14Q. Sure. So what we have learned in this
15case is that on the night of the shooting, a
16number of residents came down to the lobby and
17talked to Jonah. There were the Bishopps, there
18was Andrew Clement, and Garrett Smith.
19And Garrett told Jonah that he had a
20gun.
21Jonah said, I hope you don't have to
22use the gun.
23Then the group went into the elevator
24and went up to the 48th floor.
Page 57
Back to contents1were you aware of that until I just
2said it?
3MS. WEGNER: I'm just going to object to the
4characterization.
5MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to form and
6foundation.
7Go ahead, you can answer, if you can.
8THE WITNESS: I will say no because I did not
9hear that conversation between the two.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. No, I know you didn't hear the -- I
12know you weren't there. You and the other
13doormen have talked about this. You said you
14met with Deborah Romero.
15I'm talking about -- I'm not asking you
16to verify that it happened or not, I'm trying to
17tell you what we have learned in this case. And
18I'm wondering if anybody shared any of that
19information with you. I'm not talking about
20your lawyer, but the other doormen or Deborah,
21did you talk about any of that?
22A. They did say that the tenant had a gun.
23I just didn't hear about the conversation that
24was had about it.
Page 58
Back to contents1Q. Okay.
2A. I was just made aware that there was a
3gun involved.
4Q. Did you receive any training from
5Deborah or anybody at the building that you
6should not bring a resident who had a gun to go
7and encounter a hazardous situation?
8A. NO.
9Q. was there any discussion with Deborah
10after the shooting that that would be precluded
11going forward, that door staff would not be
12permitted to bring residents from the lobby up
13to encounter residents?
14MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
15and foundation. Also, it's been asked and
16answered. I think he just answered that
17question.
18But go ahead, you can answer it again.
19THE WITNESS: Sorry, can you repeat the
20question again?
21BY MR. BLANDIN:
22Q. Right. So what I'm doing is I'm taking
23the events, I'm taking the number of factors and
24asking you about them in different ways. So
Page 59
Back to contents1you've told me a bunch already. And I'm not
2trying to repeat myself, I'm trying to be --
3specifically asking you different questions.
4I'm asking if when you sat down with
5Deborah Romero and the other door staff, did you
6talk about, hey, the doorman should not be
7bringing a group of residents in the elevator up
8into the building to encounter somebody who's a
9potential threat? Did you talk about that at
10all?
11A. It was brought up, but I don't remember
12the discussion of it at the time.
13Q. Okay. were you told that you should
14not -- as door staff, you should not be doing
15that?
16MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
17foundation. It's been asked and answered.
18Go ahead, you can answer it again.
19THE WITNESS: NO.
20BY MR. BLANDIN:
21Q. And the gun part, the part where -- and
22I'm representing to you -- I'm asking if that
23was talked about with Deborah Romero. Did she
24talk about that the door staff should not
Page 60
Back to contents1knowingly be bringing one resident who has a gun
2with them to encounter an individual in the
3building?
4MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
5and foundation. It's been asked and answered,
6and I think it misstates the evidence in this
7case.
8But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
9can.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. was that talked about?
12A. It was talked about, but I don't
13remember the outcome at this time.
14Q. All right. So Deborah did talk about
15whether it was okay for door staff to get on an
16elevator with another resident who had a gun?
17MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form, foundation.
18I think that misstates his testimony. He says
19he didn't recall the testimony -- or the
20discussion.
21Go ahead, you can answer, if you can.
22THE WITNESS: There were discussions about
23this and there were discussions continuing
24between the door staff and the management, but I
Page 61
Back to contents1just don't remember at this time.
2BY MR. BLANDIN:
3Q. Well, give me an idea of what you do
4remember.
5A. I remember how -- when I was working
6with my coworker, the discussions were, you
7know, about the incident that happened, if it
8was okay for what was to have happened.
9Q. And what was said?
10A. They were just trying to put together a
11plan, and we would discuss with management what
12would be the protocols moving forward.
13Q. Okay. And were you part of those
14conversations?
15A. At the time, yes.
16Q. And how long did those go on for?
17A. when it was -- when we had the meetings
18with Deborah, there was a meeting about that. I
19believe it was -- the conversations weren't
20short, I just don't remember the time span, but
21there were discussions.
22Q. Yeah, I don't care about how long. I'm
23trying to get to the meat of the matter.
24Did she put -- did Deborah put together
Page 62
Back to contents1a protocol as to what the door staff were
2supposed to do?
3A. She mentioned to us that they were
4putting together information and guidelines for
5it.
6Q. For what?
7A. For encountering situations.
8Q. For when the doorman should go and
9encounter an individual; is that correct?
10A. Yes.
11Q. And were those guidelines put together
12by Deborah Romero as to when door staff should
13go and encounter an individual?
14A. I want to say it was put together by
15her. I think I remember the discussion saying
16that they were putting together a protocol from
17-- I believe the protocol was being put together
18from a training from another individual that had
19training for this.
20Q. What do you mean?
21A. what am I saying? There was -- I
22believe at the time there was a plan,
23discussions. I think the building was talking
24to a company about safety and safety protocols
Page 63
Back to contents1to follow.
2Q. Okay. You're saying that Deborah
3Romero was speaking with an outside contractor
4to help put together a protocol for the door
5staff as to how to handle this situation in the
6future?
7MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
8and foundation. I think that misstates what he
9said.
10But go ahead, you can answer.
11THE WITNESS: I can't say yes or no for that
12one. There was discussions about it, but I
13didn't stay that long after for the final
14results.
15BY MR. BLANDIN:
16Q. So I'm just -- I'm trying -- it's late
17in the day. You don't do this very often and I
18do it way too much. And I'm trying to just cut
19to the chase. i'm trying to get you to tell me
20what you remember.
21You're telling me there was a
22protocol --
23MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection. That's not what
24+he testified to.
Page 64
Back to contents1BY MR. BLANDIN:
2Q. You're telling me there was a protocol
3that was talked about for this type of
4situation; do I have that part correct?
5A. Yes.
6Q. Okay. Was that -- while you worked
7there for the balance of the year, from
8September until the time you left, was that
9protocol ever put into place?
10A. I -- I don't know. I left before the
11final discussions.
12Q. In what month did you leave?
13A. The third or fourth month of the 2024
14year.
15Q. Okay. So from September of 2023,
16September 15th, the next day, up until you left
17in -- when was it? March, February, March?
18A. For my final date?
19Q. Yeah.
20A. I don't remember the month that I left.
21I just vaguely remember at the time from the new
22year when I did.
23Q. You're telling me it was about four or
24five months after the shooting that you left?
Page 65
Back to contents1A. Yes.
2Q. During that time period, those four to
3five months after the shooting before you left,
4was there any protocol put into place by Deborah
5Romero or anybody at the building as to how to
6handle this situation as to when the door staff
7were to leave the front door and go and
8encounter an individual?
9MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection. It's been asked
10and answered.
11But go ahead, you can answer it again.
12THE WITNESS: There was a discussion, but I
13wasn't there to see if the protocol was put into
14place.
15BY MR. BLANDIN:
16Q. Okay. No protocol that you know about:
17is that accurate?
18A. Yes.
19Q. Okay. Different topic.
20The doors on the -- on the floors, are
21you familiar with them?
22A. vaguely familiar.
23Q. Let's talk about the maintenance role
24you served.
Page 66
Back to contents1Did you work maintenance at The Legacy
2for a period of time?
3A. NO, I was just strictly a doorman
4there.
5Q. Okay.
6A. The only time I worked maintenance was
7at the Hermitage.
8Q. Okay. Do you have any knowledge or
9information about what it would take to knock
10open, break open one of the residents’ doors at
11The Legacy?
12MS. WEGNER: Objection; form, calls for
13speculation.
14THE WITNESS: I wasn't told anything about
15that for the building.
16BY MR. BLANDIN:
17Q. Okay. Did you work the morning of the
18-- before the shooting on the -- September 14th?
19A. Did you say did I work before?
20Q. Before.
21A. Before. During the day?
22Q. During the day.
23A. what was that day? was it a Monday,
24Tuesday, or --
Page 67
Back to contents1Q. I think it was a Thursday because it
2was -- it was something like margarita night at
3one of the area restaurants that the Bishopps
4told us about?
5MR. BENTIVENGA: September 14th, 2023.
6THE WITNESS: Okay. Thursday. Yes, I worked
7the morning.
8BY MR. BLANDIN:
9Q. And so your shift would have ended at
102:00?
11A. I don't remember the shift time, if it
12was from 6:00 to 2:00 or from 7:00 to 3:00. But
13from that time span, yes, I would have worked
14for those hours.
15Q. Do you know who relieved you?
16A. That day, Thursday, it was Joe, I
17believe.
18Q. And my understanding is that the
19building had two -- regularly had two door staff
20per shift: is that accurate or not?
21A. At the time, for morning shift, yes,
22but for second shift, there were times where
23morning shift had to assist them.
24Q. explain that, if you can.
Page 68
Back to contents1A. During second shift, sometimes there
2would be just one doorman for a while.
3Q. why is that?
4A. There was a deceased employee that's
5there now, his name was Joel Brown or Joel Bobb,
6he would work the afternoon shifts and then he
7would work the overnight shifts.
8Q. He worked double shifts?
9A. No, so for his shift, he would work
10three days for the afternoon, and then he would
11work two nights for the weekends, I believe, if
12that's...
13Q. SO let me -- let me try it this way:
14Did every shift, was it supposed to have two
15door staff?
16A. Yes.
17Q. And you're saying there were times when
18that didn't work out for one reason or another?
19A. Yes.
20Q. Was that common?
21A. At the time when I was working there,
22yes.
23Q. And you're trying to explain to me why
24that was; it was because one of the individuals
Page 69
Back to contents1worked two shifts?
2A. Not two -- he worked also split shift.
3So just like how I worked at the Hermitage from
4mornings and then afternoons, this individual
5worked afternoons and then overnights for his
6other two days.
7Q. At the -- at the time of the shooting,
8Jonah Nena was the only front door staff that
9was -- that was there. Was -- do you know if
10that was a common or uncommon occurrence for
11that shift?
12A. For that shift, yes.
13Q. Yes what?
14A. The -- he was alone from time to time.
15Q. Why would that be?
16A. For morning shift workers, we would
17sometimes hold over for an extra four hours, and
18then once the four hours came, we had left. So
19that was our overtime for those days when the
20overnight man couldn't come in early or -- we
21could stay late.
22Q. So it would not be uncommon for -- for
23Jonah Nena's shift to only have one door staff?
24MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
Page 70
Back to contents1and foundation. I think that misstates his
2testimony.
3But go ahead, you can answer.
4THE WITNESS: Yes, there were times where the
5second shift, there would be one doorman.
6BY MR. BLANDIN:
7Q. And I'm just trying to figure out how
8often that happened. was it -- was it several
9times a week? Or how would you characterize it?
10MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to form and
11foundation.
12Go ahead, you can answer, if you can.
13THE WITNESS: He would not be alone for the
14full shift. There was always someone there from
15first shift that would hold over an extra four
16hours. So he wasn't alone all the time. Like,
17there would be someone that would work with him
18from morning shift for an additional four hours.
19we would hold over.
20BY MR. BLANDIN:
21Q. You're - all right. So Nena's shift
22would be when? when would it start?
23A. 3:00 to 11:00.
24Q. So you're -- you're saying that someone
Page 71
Back to contents1from the morning shift would stay from 3:00
2until 7:00?
3A. 3:00 until 7:00, yes. That sounds
4right.
5Q. And then from 7:00 until the end of
6Nena's shift, he would be the only staff, door
7staff?
8MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection. You don't have a
9time frame on there. He didn't say it was all
10the time.
11But go ahead, you can answer, if you
12can.
13So I object to form and foundation and
14no timing.
15THE WITNESS: There -- let me think. There
16were times where for his final four hours, he
17may have been alone.
18BY MR. BLANDIN:
19Q. And that's what I'm trying to get some
20sense of as to how often that happened. was it
21common or uncommon?
22A. At the time, since the deceased
23employee, Joel, was still out, but he was still
24employed, it was common. That was one of the
Page 72
Back to contents1main reasons why they had hired me on as a
2part-time worker.
3Q. Okay.
4A. I was filling in for the empty slots.
5Q. All right. Let's -- let's go to Abnerd
6Joseph. Did you know him?
7A. Abnerd Joseph. I ran into him on rare
8occasions, every now and then.
9Q. At the building?
10A. Yes.
11Q. Did you know each other by -- by name?
12A. NO, I didn't know him at first by name.
13How I would see him, he would leave for the day,
14and my coworker would say, oh, that's Joseph,
15good guy.
16Q. The coworker you're referring to was
17- who?
18A. That would be Adrian and Warner.
19Q. Okay. Did you know Abnerd well enough
20to say -- say -- to talk to him?
21A. Not personal conversations, just the
22polite hello, have a good day, welcome back.
23Q. Okay. were there any -- were there any
24descriptions of Abnerd Joseph as violent or
Page 73
Back to contents1unhinged or mentally unstable at any point in
2time that you're aware of?
3A. No, there was --
4MR. BENTIVENGA: Go ahead.
5THE WITNESS: No, there was no descriptions
6of him like that.
7MR. BENTIVENGA: You're talking about prior
8to the event?
9BY MR. BLANDIN:
10Q. Yeah, prior -- you're not aware of
11anybody who described him that way other than
12during the -- the night of the shooting; is that
13accurate?
14A. Yes.
15Q. And you never observed Abnerd acting
16any way other than as a nice guy; is that
17accurate?
18A. Yes.
19Q. All right. Let me -- did you ask Jonah
20Nena what happened?
21A. NO, I never asked him directly what
22happened.
23Q. why not?
24A. I didn't feel comfortable talking to
Page 74
Back to contents1him about it.
2Q. Who did you ask about what happened?
3A. I didn't have to ask. It was being
4discussed.
5Q. How were you notified of the shooting?
6A. The next day when I came into work,
7there was an e-mail saying that there was an
8incident involved in the building. I believe
9that's how it was stated on the incident -- but
10then I hear from a -- I believe I heard from a
11maintenance man that there was a shooting
12involved.
13Q. was it Hamilton?
14A. I do not remember.
15Q. So in terms of the details of what
16happened, how did you learn the details?
17MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object to
18form and foundation, but -- because I don't
19think he's testified that he learned the
20details.
21But go ahead.
22THE WITNESS: How I heard about the incident
23mainly just came from secondhand. It was
24brought up by -- first, I read the e-mail saying
Page 75
Back to contents1that an incident had happened, so that -- there
2was that. Then I heard from -- I believe it was
3maintenance that brought it up to the door
4staff.
5BY MR. BLANDIN:
6Q. And what was your understanding as to
7what occurred?
8A. My first understanding was that a
9situation happened in the building and there was
10a shooting involving a tenant.
11Q. Did you have any other information
12besides that?
13A. No, that's all I heard at the time.
14Q. Did you learn who -- who fired the gun?
15A. At the time, no, I didn't hear who
16fired the gun.
17Q. when did you find out who fired the
18gun?
19MR. BENTIVENGA: Just an objection for the
20srecord.
21He's not asking you about anything that
22you and I have discussed in the case because of
23the attorney-client privilege. He's asking
24about your discussions with your coworkers or
Page 76
Back to contents1however you heard about it.
2MR. BLANDIN: Yes, that's correct.
3THE WITNESS: I understand.
4During one of the meetings between the
5door staff and the management, Deborah did bring
6up that the deceased, Abnerd, and the other
7individual, Garrett, were involved.
8BY MR. BLANDIN:
9Q. Did she explain what happened?
10A. No, not the direct details at the time,
11but details came further down.
12Q. And that's what I'm trying to
13understand, what details did you learn about?
14A. When the final discussion was had, when
15time had passed and Deborah sat down with the
16door staff, she told us the full event that had
17happened.
18Q. And to the best of your recollection,
19what did she say to you?
20A. She said to me that the night it had
21happened, people had called the police, they
22called the front desk. People came down the
23elevator. They spoke with Jonah. The panic
24button was pressed and -- and that Jonah and the
Page 77
Back to contents1group of individuals went up the elevator.
2Q. And did -- what else did she say?
3A. She said they came down, Jonah was
4hurt, and the incident happened in the hallway
5where the shooting happened.
6Q. well, it seems like she left out the --
7the part about the shooting. Did she discuss
8that with you?
9A. She said that the shooting -- that
10Garrett had the firearm and the one that was
11shot was Abnerd Joseph.
12Q. Did she say anything else about why
13Garrett shot Abnerd Joseph?
14A. From what Deborah said, she said that
15Abnerd attacked the group.
16Q. Did she say anything else?
17A. She said -- she said how Jonah was
18trying to talk down Abnerd.
19Q. Did she say anything else?
20A. She said how Abnerd went to attack
21Jonah.
22Q. Did she say anything else?
23A. For the meeting, that's all I can
24remember.
Page 78
Back to contents1Q. Did -- was there a discussion about why
2Abnerd attacked any of these people?
3A. There -- the front desk was saying, why
4did he attack people?
5Q. And what did Deborah say?
6A. We don't know why he attacked.
7Q. Did the front desk ask Deborah why
8Garrett Smith went in the elevator with a gun?
9A. The front desk did -- we didn't ask her
10about that, no.
11Q. Okay. Did the front desk staff ask
12Deborah why Jonah got into the elevator with
13residents to go up after the police were called?
14A. There were individuals in the lobby
15that were concerned about their door being
16unlocked. That's what Deborah did bring up.
17Q. Was it your understanding, based on
18Deborah's description, that Jonah and this group
19of residents went into the elevator and up to
20the 48th floor because one of the residents was
21concerned their door was unlocked?
22A. I will say yes, the residents were very
23concerned that they didn't lock -- or had
24unlocked doors.
Page 79
Back to contents1Q. You mentioned that Deborah told you
2Jonah was injured?
3A. Was that it?
4Q. Yeah, did Deborah tell you that
5Jonah --
6A. Yes, yes, Deborah did -- Deborah did
7say Jonah was injured.
8Q. Did she describe what his injuries
9were?
10A. She said that Jonah had told her that
11Abnerd punched him repeatedly on his head.
12Q. And other than that, was there any
13description or discussion about what, if any,
14injury Jonah had?
15A. Yes. There was a description that he
16had a large lump on the side of his head.
17Q. Did you ever see a large lump on the
18side of Jonah's head after this incident?
19A. NO, because time had passed and Jonah
20was leave of absence for a while.
21Q. Do you know how long he was off work?
22A. I can't say for a correct time frame.
23Q. Okay. And the discussion that you had
24with Deborah where she told you about the large
Page 80
Back to contents1lump on the head, was that the day after the
2shooting?
3A. Are you asking was the large lump
4discussed the day after, or are you trying to
5say what time the discussion was?
6Q. Yeah, I'm trying to get an -- you've
7told me about the timing of these discussions,
8and I’m trying to figure out when Deborah told
9you Jonah was injured and had this large lump.
10A. I see. All right. So from the time
11frame, Deborah did tell me he was attacked and
12then some time passed, and then I believe she
13said that due to the attack, there was a large
14lump on his head because of it.
15Q. All right. So -- and I don't want to
16repeat what we've talked about.
17My understanding is that there were two
18discussions with Deborah Romero about the
19shooting, one that took place the day after the
20shooting and one a couple of -- maybe two days
21later; is that accurate?
22A. I can't say for the time span. There
23was the original discussion. I didn't discuss
24with her directly during the day after. I had
Page 81
Back to contents1heard there was the incident and I read
2something in the e-mail. And then I believe I
3spoke with Deborah after, saying, hey, did
4something happen here so I could actually hear
5from her instead of --
6Q. so you're telling me about a
7conversation that was different from the
8meetings that the door staff had; is that true?
9A. There was a direct meeting about what
10had happened, but then I went to talk to her
11directly. i'm, like, Deborah, did something
12happen here in the building so that I can hear.
13Q. All right. I don't think we've had --
14talked about that conversation; is that right?
15A. I don't think so.
16Q. when was that conversation with
17Deborah?
18A. Probably the day after I came back from
19work because I kept on hearing from the
20maintenance side that did reach to the door
21staff about an incident that happened. So I
22spoke with Deborah the next day and I asked her
23did something happen. And that's when I was
24told there was an incident in the building that
Page 82
Back to contents1involved the tenants here and there was a
2shooting.
3And then there was a group meeting with
4the door staff that --
5Q. Same day?
6A. Not the same day, a little bit further
7that did discuss what happened the night of.
8Q. All right. Just so I get this timeline
9down on the record, you talked to Deborah the
10day after the shooting, so the 15th, about what
11happened, she gave you some preliminary
12information, right?
13A. Yes.
14Q. Did she talk to you about Jonah's
15injuries at that point?
16A. No, she just said Jonah was hurt.
17Q. Did she talk to you about any of the
18details during that initial conversation?
19A. No, not with the private discussion.
20More of the details came when the door staff was
21asked to have a sit-down.
22Q. All right. And relative to the
23shooting, I was under the impression you were
24telling us that this staff meeting was within a
Page 83
Back to contents1couple of days of the shooting. Is that
2timeline accurate or not?
3A. The staff meeting, yeah, it did happen
4within a couple of days from the shooting.
5Q. Was there a third conversation with
6Deborah or not? Remember, we were talking about
7protocols? was that all within one staff
8meeting, or were there two staff meetings where
9protocols were discussed?
10A. That was only one staff meeting.
11Q. Okay. was there a second staff meeting
12that you participated in?
13A. NO.
14Q. Okay. All right. So it would have
15been within a couple of days of the shooting
16that Deborah would have told you about Jonah's
17injury; is that accurate?
18A. Yes. when -- yes, yes, a couple of
19days.
20Q. Okay. At any point in time, did the
21door staff go and talk to their union
22representatives about this incident?
23A. I don't know. I didn't speak with
24them, asking them if they had spoken with the
Page 84
Back to contents1union representative.
2Q. So the union provides safety and
3security training. My understanding from what
4Deborah Romero has said is that the building
5didn't require any of the staff to have that
6training.
7Did this come up at all during the
8conversations with Deborah Romero?
9MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object to
10the form and the foundation with respect to the
11training by the union.
12But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
13can.
14THE WITNESS: Sorry, can you repeat the
15question?
16BY MR. BLANDIN:
17Q. Sure. Let me -- what I'm getting at is
18this: when you're talking with Deborah at the
19staff meeting or at any other time, did she say
20something like, look, we want the door staff to
21go and get union training on safety and
22security?
23A. I see.
24MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection; asked and
Page 85
Back to contents1answered about training.
2But go ahead, you can answer it.
3THE WITNESS: No.
4BY MR. BLANDIN:
5Q. We've danced around this a little bit,
6but I've not asked you point blank, so I'm going
7to ask you point blank, did any of the front
8door staff say Jonah should not have left his
9position and gone up in the elevator, he should
10have waited for the police?
11MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection; asked and
12answered. Objection; form and foundation as
13well.
14But go ahead.
15THE WITNESS: No.
16BY MR. BLANDIN:
17Q. Okay. Did you ever meet anybody who
18identified themselves as one of Abnerd Joseph's
19brothers?
20A. I have.
21Q. And on how many occasions?
22A. Once.
23Q. was that the day after the shooting?
24A. NO, some time had passed.
Page 86
Back to contents1Q. How long after the shooting?
2A. I can't give a direct timeline, but I
3will say a week, maybe 12 days later.
4Q. Okay. Was that after the last
5conversation with Deborah Romero where she met
6with the staff to talk -- the front door staff
7to talk about change in protocol?
8MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
9and foundation on that. I think it misstates
10the testimony.
11But go ahead, you can answer.
12THE WITNESS: I will say they came after the
13time we had the group discussion with the door
14staff.
15BY MR. BLANDIN:
16Q. And are you able to identify who the
17two individuals were? Do you know -- do you
18remember what they looked like?
19A. Not confidently, but a vague memory is
20there still.
21Q. Did you know their names?
22A. I did not ask for their names, I
23believe.
24Q. Okay. Can you describe the encounter?
Page 87
Back to contents1A. The encounter, they were frustrated,
2they were upset, sad, slightly aggressive, loud.
3Q. Do you remember anything that they --
4strike that.
5Do you remember what they said to you
6and you said to them?
7A. I do not remember what I said to them.
8I remember that night where -- it was one of
9those cases where the morning shift was holding
10over for the second shift, and I was preparing
11to leave. And before I left, I was going to
12speak to Deborah about a different topic. The
13two brothers then entered the building. The
14commotion came up.
15During the commotion, one brother had
16stated, this is the building that got my brother
17killed. That's when I immediately understood
18this must be the deceased's family.
19Q. Did you overhear anything else either
20one of the brothers said?
21A. It's not that I overheard, I returned
22to the front desk after I realized the situation
23where this was the family, and I wanted to stay
24with my coworker, who was the deceased coworker,
Page 88
Back to contents1Joel Brown or Joel Bobb.
2Q. Joel has subsequently passed?
3A. Yes.
4Q. May I ask what -- what his cause of
5death was?
6A. Cancer.
7Q. He was a friend of yours?
8A. I knew him briefly. I was the one that
9was filling in for his position. The times I
10would work with him, I would make sure that he
11was okay at the front desk.
12Q. You were looking out for him?
13A. Yes.
14Q. The -- all right. So you hear a
15commotion, you go back to the front desk. what
16happens next?
17A. After I hear the commotion, I sit back
18down at the front desk with Joel so that we're
19there together so I can also hear and be by him.
20Because he was returning from his treatment, so
21I was assisting with him for the duties.
22when I was sitting at the front desk,
23the brothers continued with the loud discussion,
24this building got my brother killed. what --
Page 89
Back to contents1how did this happen? I can't believe this
2place. And then towards the end of the
3frustrating chants, one of the brothers stated,
4I'm going to shoot up this place.
5So from there, as I'm standing at the
6front desk, I was messaging Deborah, letting her
7know we're okay out here, we're okay. Then once
8the verbal threat came, I told her -- I can’t
9quote myself, but it was along the lines of, I'm
10pressing the panic button at this time.
11Q. This exchange with the two brothers
12where you were present, how long did this last?
13A. I can't give an exact time, but it did
14last for awhile. Maybe an hour, two hours.
15Q. The brothers were -- stood in --
16remained in the lobby for one to two hours?
17A. Yes. They were there for some time.
18Q. Okay. And the statement that I'm going
19to shoot up this building, was that made --
20strike that.
21when within the one to two hours was
22that statement made?
23A. Around the final hour, maybe within an
24hour and 40 minutes, maybe an hour and 35
Page 90
Back to contents1minutes.
2Q. How long after that statement was made
3was it before they left?
4A. Thirty, maybe forty minutes in
5addition.
6Q. When was it that you pressed the panic
7button?
8A. I pressed the panic button immediately
9following the verbal threat.
10Q. Okay.
11A. And I then messaged -- I was -- while I
12was standing at the front desk, I had my phone
13kind of perched underneath the ledge. As I was
14watching, I was texting on the phone, we're
15okay, Deborah, we're okay. Then I say, I'm
16pressing the panic button now.
17Q. Okay. I want to spend -- spend some
18time going through that exchange, so I'll just
19alert you that we're going to talk about it for
20a little bit.
21Are you good? Do you want to break?
22A. NO, I'm okay.
23Q. The -- the exchange that you overheard
24with the brother while you were in Deborah
Page 91
Back to contents1Romero's office, about what time did that
2happen?
3A. Iwasn't in the office. what was
4happening was I had went to the back room for
5either a drink or a snack. I was returning --
6Q. I'm sorry, by the?
7A. By the employee break room. So around
8the corner, there's a hallway --
9Q. Is that the security office?
10A. No, it's just a break room. There's
11lockers. It's like a changing room/cafeteria.
12So I go back there, get a quick drink.
13I was going to change, but then I was going to
14go back and talk to Deborah about a different
15topic. That's when -- right as I reached the
16corner, I was hearing the commotion in the
17lobby, and that's when I heard the comment, this
18is the building that got my brother killed. So
19I never actually went inside the office.
20Q. SO you never got to talk to Deborah
21before this started?
22A. NO.
23Q. Was -- your shift was ended and you
24were on -- you were going into the break room to
Page 92
Back to contents1get ready to leave?
2A. Yes.
3Q. what was the topic you were planning on
4talking to Deborah about?
5MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to
6relevance.
7But go ahead, you can answer.
8THE WITNESS: what was the topic about? I
9was just going to let her know about how the day
10went today and let her know that Joel was here
11and he was doing okay. It was mostly just to
12let her know that my coworker, Joel Brown, Joel
13Bobb, he's doing okay so far. Because when Joel
14was coming back to work, I was asked to keep an
15eye on him, let me know if he's okay.
16BY MR. BLANDIN:
17Q. So this is 5:00ish?
18A. No, this was 6:54ish.
19Q. And Deborah was still there?
20A. Yeah, at the time she was still in her
21office.
22Q. My understanding was that she nonnally
23left at 5:00. Do you know why she was still
24there?
Page 93
Back to contents1A. I do not know. All I know was, oh,
2she’s still here, I want to let her know about
3how the shift went for today, how Joel was
4doing. And from there, the commotion, and I
5returned to the front desk.
6Q. All right. So you go -- you go up to
7the front desk, and you told me that the
8brothers -- one of the brothers said, this is
9the building that got my brother killed, right?
10A. Yes.
11Q. And you also said at some point, one of
12the brothers said something like, I'm going to
13shoot up this building?
14A. Yes.
15Q. Did you ever overhear them say anything
16else during the hour and a half to two hours
17that they remained?
18MR. BENTIVENGA: Other than what he's already
19testified to?
20MR. BLANDIN: well, I don't think there's
21anything else he testified to, which is why I'm
22asking.
23THE WITNESS: They were discussing and then
24they were kind of talking over their shoulders
Page 94
Back to contents1at us, you know, saying, I can't believe this
2building, what happened, this is the place that
3killed my brother, and then the end of the
4conversation where the threat was made.
5They were having their own conversation
6and there were parts where they were having a
7conversation and they spoke up to somewhat so to
8-- I don't know how to say it, kind of yell at
9us in a way.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. Did you know why they were there?
12A. They originally came because they said
13they wanted to go up to their brother's unit.
14Q. And you heard them say that?
15A. Yes.
16Q. Do you know which brother said --
17strike that.
18were both brothers speaking, or was
19there just one brother who was speaking?
20A. Both brothers were speaking.
21Q. Okay. Do you know which brother or are
22you able to describe which brother said, I'm
23going to shoot up this building?
24A. Yes, I remember the one. He was the
Page 95
Back to contents1skinnier of the two.
2Q. what did he look like?
3A. Black, skinny, average. Had dreads. I
4can't remember if he was wearing a black with --
5sweat suit, tracksuit with red stripes or if it
6was a -- just an all black sweat suit/tracksuit.
7Q. Have you seen the lobby videotape of
8the two -- of this incident?
9A. I'm the one that originally sent the
10videotape to Deborah.
11Q. Right. And I'm asking if in
12preparation for your deposition, have you looked
13at the videotape?
14A. I tried to, but my phone or my laptop
15wasn't playing it for me.
16Q. what do you mean?
17A. It just said file error or something.
18Q. Why did you have that on your -- on
19your phone?
20A. The -- let me think.
21MR. BENTIVENGA: Just going to object to the
22extent it may be attorney-client privileged.
23But you can answer, if you can.
24THE WITNESS: They sent me my report for what
Page 96
Back to contents1happened that day since I left and since the
2time had passed.
3MR. BENTIVENGA: If you're -- if you're
4talking about an attorney that has sent it to
5you, let us know that because that's off
6limits --
7THE WITNESS: Oh, I see.
8MR. BENTIVENGA: -- for questioning.
9BY MR. BLANDIN:
10Q. Right, I don't want to know anything
11about communications with your lawyer. Is it
12something the lawyer sent or something Deborah
13Romero and the building sent?
14A. No, it was -- it was an attorney.
15Q. The attorney. Okay. I don't want to
16know about that. well, I don't want -- I don't
17want to know about the communication, but I do
18want to know if you've seen that video.
19Have you seen the video since you quit
20working at the building?
21A. No.
22Q. Okay. From the video, are you able to
23identify who said what, which of the brothers
24made a threat?
Page 97
Back to contents1A. That, I can.
2Q. Okay. And to whom was the threat
3directed?
4A. It was -- the threat wasn't directed
5directly to us. It was an overstated threat.
6or, rather, a heated verbal threat.
7Q. What's the -- I'm not following.
8You're --
9A. SO --
10Q. Let me try this --
11A. Yeah.
12Q. Let me try this. So you're telling me
13about an hour and a half or two hours' worth of
14the brothers being there after you went up to
15the front desk with Joel, right?
16A. Mm-hmm.
17Q. That's an example -- you have to say
18yes.
19A. Oh, yes, yes.
20Q. Okay. Did you actually talk to the
21brothers? Did you engage them in conversation?
22A. NO.
23Q. Did Joel?
24A. Yes.
Page 98
Back to contents1Q. Do you remember any of their
2conversation?
3A. I remember Joel having to tell them
4they need to quiet down because they were
5shouting in the lobby.
6Q. Okay. Other than Joel saying, you need
7-- you need to quiet down, do you remember any
8other conversation between Joel and the
9brothers?
10A. No. The brothers were just hanging
11around the lobby, having their discussion
12between themselves, and parts of the
13conversations, saying it louder as a way to kind
14of...
15Q. All right. So the mental picture that
16I have is you gathered, you understood the
17brothers were there because they wanted access
18to their -- to Abnerd’s unit?
19A. Yes.
20Q. But you never actually had a
21conversation with the brothers; is that
22accurate?
23A. Yes, and I didn't have a direct
24conversation with them.
Page 99
Back to contents1Q. Right. And the conversation that Joel
2was having with them was -- was he would
3periodically tell them, you need to quiet down?
4A. Yes.
5Q. Did you overhear any other
6conversations other than that?
7MR. BENTIVENGA: Other than what he's
8testified to?
9MR. BLANDIN: well, I --
10MR. BENTIVENGA: The statements?
11MR. BLANDIN: That's why we're going through
12this in minute detail.
13BY MR. BLANDIN:
14Q. Other than a brother making a -- and
15that's a good point.
16other than a brother making a
17statement -- I'm talking about a conversation
18like you and I are having right now, we're
19talking to each other, did you ever overhear the
20brothers talking with Joel?
21A. Yes. So the original interaction with
22the brothers, again, I was getting ready to
23leave.
24Q. Yep.
Page 100
Back to contents1A. But then I hear the commotion --
2Q. Yep.
3A. -- how the brothers said, so this is
4the place. I go back there, I -- I most -- I
5sit down at the desk so that I'm with Joel. But
6Joel and the brothers are having their -- having
7the conversation. He's the one that's
8interacting with them. That's when I understand
9that they want to go upstairs.
10Q. Okay. So you overhear some
11conversation between Joel and the brothers about
12their desire to go up to the unit?
13A. Yes.
14Q. And did you hear Joel's response?
15A. Yes, at the time, they say no one can
16go up there.
17Q. And was anything else said between
18them?
19A. They were asking why they couldn't go
20upstairs. Joel stated, I remember, no one's
21allowed to go up there at this time.
22Q. And was anything else said?
23A. That's when the -- just the loud
24overstatement, discussion they were having
Page 101
Back to contents1between themselves in the lobby started.
2Q. This is where the two brothers are
3talking to each other?
4A. Yes,
5Q. They're no longer talking to Joel and
6they're not talking to you; is that accurate?
7A. Yes.
8Q. At any point in time, did the brothers
9reengage Joel or you in conversation?
10A. Yes. One of the brothers had actually
11asked if they wouldn't mind -- if they could
12charge his phone since they just came from where
13they came from.
14Q. Okay.
15A. We did somewhat help them. There was a
16plug near the ledge by our window where he can
17plug his phone in. But we did let him know, you
18can't be around the desk, just plug your phone,
19leave it there, and then go by the waiting area.
20Q. All right. So the brother asked to use
21the phone -- or use the charger, you say, we'll
22let you use this outlet, but you can't hang out
23by the desk, you'll have to move over to the
24lobby?
Page 102
Back to contents1A. Yes. So the lobby is massive. The
2desk area where the brothers were, there was,
3you know, the couch, the rug area.
4Q. At that point, did you -- did you or
5Joel or anybody from the building ask the
6brothers to leave?
7A. At the point we were just observing and
8listening. Before the statement was made, no,
9we didn't ask them to leave.
10Q. Okay. After the -- and the brother who
11asked for the phone charger -- outlet, do you
12remember which one that was?
13A. That was the more heavier-set one.
14Q. Okay. After that conversation where
15you let him use the outlet, was there any more
16conversation with the brothers and Joel or you?
17A. NO, not direct.
18Q. Okay.
19A. There was the -- you know, the loud
20discussion between the two brothers
21periodically, Joel asking them to quiet down.
22Q. Okay. So there would be statements
23where Joel would say, quiet down, and there
24would be conversation between the two brothers:
Page 103
Back to contents1do I have that correct?
2A. Yes.
3Q. At any point in time did Joel ask the
4brothers to leave?
5A. I had asked the brothers to leave once
6the threat was made.
7Q. Okay. All right. So Joel did not ask
8them to leave, you asked them to leave; is that
9correct?
10A. Yes.
11Q. All right. And what you're referring
12to as the threat is when the taller, skinnier
13brother said to the heavier-set brother, I'm
14going to shoot up this building; is that what
15you're referring to?
16A. Yes.
17Q. Is that the only threat that you
18overheard?
19A. Yes, that was the only threat I
20overheard.
21Q. Okay. And that was not directed to you
22or Joel, that was in conversation between the
23two brothers; is that accurate?
24MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object to
Page 104
Back to contents1form and foundation. I think it misstates his
2testimony.
3But go ahead.
4THE WITNESS: It was during the time where
5the two brothers went on with each other, but
6the skinnier one of the two said it loudly where
7I heard it clearly.
8BY MR. BLANDIN:
9Q. Where you overheard the conversation?
10A. Yes.
11Q. Okay. And then did you -- after you
12overheard that statement, did you immediately
13ask the brothers to leave?
14A. At first I pressed the panic button
15under the desk.
16Q. Okay. Did the brothers take any action
17after you heard that statement?
18A. They did get frustrated towards me,
19yes.
20Q. Did they ever show a gun or a weapon?
21A. No, they --
22Q. Did they -- go ahead.
23A. They mainly showed attitude and a --
24how I do I say -- how do I say this -- attitude
Page 105
Back to contents1and rough appearance.
2Q. what do you mean by “rough appearance"?
3A. Well, I stood taller over both of them,
4but they were just, how I do I say, trying to
5speak tough towards me.
6Q. well, that's why we're going through
7this in detail. Okay? Let me -- let me wind
8the tape -- back up a minute.
9A. Okay.
10Q. I can't picture what they're doing
11there for an hour and a half, and you have not
12told me what they were doing for an hour and a
13half. am I missing something?
14A. They were just --
15MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to the
16form of the question. Do you want him to
17describe it?
18MR. BLANDIN: Sure.
19BY MR. BLANDIN:
20Q. What were they doing for an hour and a
21half?
22A. I believe the main reason why they were
23waiting was because the one brother had asked
24for the phone to be charged up and they were
Page 106
Back to contents1waiting for that, I believe. But during the
2time they were there, they were just talking
3about, you know, my brother's stuff is still up
4there. They were upset about the brother's
5death. They were discussing about -- I vaguely
6remember about packing up the unit.
7what else? That was the overall
8discussion that they were having with
9themselves.
10Q. Did they do anything else?
11A. They mainly just stood in the waiting
12area of the lobby having their discussions to
13themselves for that part and then having the
14louder discussions that they were, you know,
15frustrated of.
16Q. Did Joel tell them why they couldn't go
17to the brother's unit at any point in time?
18A. Yes, when the brothers first came and
19they asked if they can go upstairs, Joel only
20said that no one is allowed to go up there at
21this time without permission by the building.
22Q. Permission from Deborah Romero?
23A. She's the building manager. I mean, I
24was asking her, too, when it would be okay, and
Page 107
Back to contents1she said, only until things have been cleared up
2will we allow anyone to gain access to the unit.
3Q. Okay. So that's some new information
4that I didn't know.
5You're telling me that the brothers
6asked Joel when they could go up into the unit,
7and Joel asked Deborah Romero and Deborah Romero
8said -- I'm sorry, Joel said, we have to get
9permission from the building, which meant
10Deborah Romero; is that accurate?
11A. Yes.
12Q. Okay.
13A. I even asked her following forward if
14anybody tries to claim entrance inside the unit,
15whether it's the family or even the unit owner,
16do we allow them access? They say, at this time
17until it's been cleared, nobody can go in there.
18Q. Okay. So this conversation begins
19around 7:00 at night?
20A. This conversation happened the next
21day. Because after the incident happened on the
22night, I wanted to get it very clear, if anyone
23comes in saying -- for that unit, are they
24allowed to gain access?
Page 108
Back to contents1And she said, until it's been cleared,
2nobody can go up there.
3Q. Okay.
4A. Sorry, I --
5Q. I'm talking about while the brothers
6are there.
7A. Yeah.
8Q. They -- the incident with the brothers
9starts around 7:00, they're there for an hour
10and a half or two hours, so 8:30, 9:00, correct?
11A. Yes.
12Q. During that point in time when Joel
13says, you can't go up until you get permission
14from the building, did that mean from Deborah
15Romero? was that your understanding as to what
16was meant?
17A. Yes. I was just told nobody can go up
18at the time.
19Q. Okay. Did you then go and ask Deborah
20if the brothers could have access to the unit if
21she would give them permission?
22A. No, I was told nobody can go up there
23until it was cleared.
24Q. Okay. You're telling me about a
Page 109
Back to contents1conversation you had the next day. Stay with
2me. I’m talking about that night.
3A. Gotcha.
4Q. You're at the front desk for an hour
5and a half to two hours. Joel is saying, you
6can't go up until the building clears it. You
7know that means Deborah Romero, who's around the
8corner in her office. Did you go and ask her?
9MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object to
10the form and foundation of the question. I
11think it misstates his testimony. He didn't say
12it had to be cleared by Deborah Romero. He said
13"cleared." Okay? I don't know who he means by
14"cleared," but you can ask him that.
15MR. BLANDIN: He clearly said that.
16BY MR. BLANDIN:
17Q. Did you go and ask Deborah Romero
18during that hour and a half to two hours if she
19would give the brothers permission to go up?
20A. I didn't ask her if the brothers could
21have permission to go up. I just told her the
22brothers are here. The unit is still off
23“limits, no one can go up there.
24She said, no, no one can go up there
Page 110
Back to contents1until the building cleared it.
2Q. You told Deborah that no one can go
3upstairs, is that accurate, or did she tell you
4no one can go upstairs?
5A. She told me no one can go upstairs at
6the time I was confirming with her that no one
7can go up at this time because --
8Q. Did you leave the front desk and go
9over into the office and talk to her?
10A. I'm going to say no. I didn't want to
11leave Joel alone.
12Q. So how were you communicating with
13Deborah?
14A. Via phone texting.
15Q. Okay. Had the police released the unit
16by that point in time?
17MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
18and foundation.
19Go ahead, you can answer.
20BY MR. BLANDIN:
21Q. By the time the two brothers showed up,
22during this whole incident, were the brothers
23frustrated because they knew the police had
24released the building to the control of Deborah
Page 111
Back to contents1Romero?
2MS. BENTIVENGA: Objecting to form and
3foundation.
4You can answer it, if you can.
5THE WITNESS: I believe the brothers were
6upset because they couldn't go up there.
7BY MR. BLANDIN:
8Q. Okay. Had the police released the
9building to the control -- strike that.
10Had the police released the unit to the
11control of the building by the time the brothers
12showed up and wanted access that evening?
13MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to foundation.
14You can answer it, if you know.
15THE WITNESS: I wasn't informed about the
16police statement, but all I was told was the
17unit had not been cleared. So I will say no at
18the time because as far as I was told, no one is
19allowed to go up there. And when --
20BY MR. BLANDIN:
21Q. Okay. You're just following orders?
22A. Yeah.
23Q. Orders from who?
24A. Deborah. She said, no one can go up
Page 112
Back to contents1there.
2Q. Did she tell you why?
3A. It had not been cleared.
4Q. By whom? By herself? By the police?
5By whom?
6A. By the police.
7Q. Did she specifically tell you that?
8A. Yes, the police.
9Q. My understanding of the events of that
10night are the brothers were frustrated because
11the police had cleared the unit and Deborah
12wouldn't release it.
13Do you know one way or the other if
14that's accurate?
15MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
16and foundation. I think that misstates the
17evidence.
18But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
19can.
20MS. WEGNER: I'm going to join.
21THE WITNESS: I didn't hear anything about
22the police clearing.
23BY MR. BLANDIN:
24Q. So the statement that I just made, you
Page 113
Back to contents1don't know one way or the other if it’s accurate
2as to why the brothers were so frustrated; is
3that true?
4MR. BENTIVENGA: Same objections.
5You can answer.
6THE WITNESS: I do not know. I just know the
7brothers were there in the lobby the night of.
8They were frustrated and they wanted to gain
9access to the unit.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. Okay. And Deborah would not give them
12permission, true?
13A. True.
14Q. Okay. And in terms of why Deborah
15would not give them permission, did you relay
16that to the brothers? Did you tell them that?
17A. I just --
18MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
19foundation.
20But go ahead, you can answer, if you
21can.
22THE WITNESS: I stated, no one can gain
23access to the unit at this time.
Page 114
Back to contents1BY MR. BLANDIN:
2Q. Okay. Were the brothers given a time
3frame as to when they could get access?
4A. At -- that night, no.
5THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Counsel, I have three
6minutes.
7MR. BLANDIN: Sure. why don't we stop?
8MR. BENTIVENGA: Take a break?
9MR. BLANDIN: Yeah.
10MR. BENTIVENGA: Maybe, like, ten minutes.
11MR. BLANDIN: If you want ten minutes, or I
12can do -- whatever you want.
13MR. BENTIVENGA: I'd like to use the restroom
14and stretch my legs a little bit.
15MR. BLANDIN: whatever you need.
16THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. We're going off the
17record at 5:06. This is the end of Media 1.
18(whereupon, a short break was
19taken.)
20THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Okay. we are going back
21on the record at 5:17. This is the beginning of
22Media No. 2.
23(De La Cruz Exhibit No. 1 marked
24for identification.)
Page 115
Back to contents1BY MR. BLANDIN:
2Q. Ricky, I'm going to show you this
3exhibit in a second. It's marked as Plaintiff's
4exhibit 1 with today's date. it's a copy of
5Sudler Bates-stamp-page 21. It's a document
6entitled "Keylink - Activity Log" for The Legacy
7at Millennium Park. And it refers to a key that
8was returned on 9/15/23, September 15th of '23,
9at 7:44 p.m., and it has your name as the
10individual -- as the individual employee.
11Do you recognize that document?
12A. (Speaking in sotto voce.)
13I recognize this as the key sign-out.
14Q. All right. So this is the day after
15the shooting. The key is being returned to you
16at -- what time is it?
17A. 7:44 p.m.
18Q. Okay. And why would the key be
19returned to you?
20A. I see. The key -- whenever a front
21doorman is at the desk, whenever we receive a
22key, we take it and we put it back into the
23system as returned. And why my name is put for
24this is I'm the one that received the key for
Page 116
Back to contents1that night.
2Q. Okay. This next exhibit -- and we do
3have copies. we'll mark this as Exhibit 2.
4It's a four-page document that are Sudler
5Bates-stamped-pages 9 through 12. And I'll go
6through it with you.
7(De La Cruz Exhibit No. 2 marked
8for identification.)
9BY MR. BLANDIN:
10Q. The first page is an e-mail dated
11Friday, September 15th, 2023, 8:45 p.m. It's
12from The Legacy front desk. It's to The Legacy
13administrator, The Legacy assistant manager, and
14The Legacy manager. It's entitled "Incident
15report.”
16would you have been the individual that
17prepared this document?
18A. This one?
19Q. Yes.
20A. Yes, I -- this is my layout for
21Incident Reports in the shift log.
22Q. You did prepare this document? This is
23your e-mail?
24A. Yes.
Page 117
Back to contents1Q. Okay. I know earlier in the
2deposition, you thought the incident with the
3brothers took place a week or two weeks after
4the shooting. This reflects that it took place
5the day after the shooting. would that be more
6accurate?
7A. Yeah, the -- the accurate time stamp
8and dates from what I put would be correct. I
9was mixing up time.
10Q. All right. So you were -- you were
11wrong in terms of when the actual encounter with
12the brothers occurred; is that correct?
13A. Yes.
14Q. All right. The reason I showed you the
15Keylink exhibit first was that's the same night
16we're talking about, the same time the incident
17with the brothers is going on, right?
18A. Yes.
19Q. Why would you have been given the key
20to Abnerd Joseph's unit at 7:44 p.m.?
21A. That was the time for when the key was
22returned to the front desk. It was taken out
23earlier.
24Q. From -- returned from whom or by whom?
Page 118
Back to contents1A. I don't remember who handed me the key.
2It could have been -- I just don't remember who
3gave it to me. I just know from the log, it was
4me that put it back in there.
5Q. Right. So somebody's handing you the
6key to Abnerd's unit during the time period that
7the two brothers are in the lobby; is that
8right?
9A. YeS.
10Q. And did that have to do with why the
11brothers were frustrated, is somebody's
12returning the key and you're not letting them go
13up and use the unit?
14A. They did state they wanted to go up
15there and I wasn't letting them to go up.
16Q. Okay. But you had let somebody else up
17to go up into the unit?
18A. Me, no. I just --
19Q. well, who did -- I'm sorry, go ahead.
20A. I just took back the key.
21Q. From -- and you're not sure who?
22A. No, I don't remember who handed me the
23key.
24Q. So somebody was given access to the
Page 119
Back to contents1unit?
2MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to
3foundation. That's not what he said. He said
4he was given the key. He didn't say anybody
5gave -- was given access to the unit.
6But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
7can.
8That misstates his testimony.
9THE WITNESS: I can't remember much about the
10key situation. But from the log I see, I just
11simply grabbed the key and put it back into the
12key holders.
13BY MR. BLANDIN:
14Q. I don't understand what you just said.
15A. From --
16THE WITNESS: Do you mind if I --
17MR. BENTIVENGA: Sure.
18THE WITNESS: Okay. So what I can say for my
19part in this, all I simply did, from looking
20over the key log report, I grabbed the key from
21whoever gave me the key, and at the front desk,
22we have a cabinet of keys that have the key card
23reader, like an automatic clip. So I put the
24key back into the cabinet after it was given to
Page 120
Back to contents1me.
2BY MR. BLANDIN
3Q. Do you know who was returning the key
4to you?
5A. I don't remember who gave me the key at
6the time.
7Q. Were the police returning the key to
8you?
9A. I don't remember if it was them that
10gave me the key. I mean, I can see from this I
11was the one that got the key once it was
12returned and I put it back in there, but I don't
13remember who gave me the key.
14Q. So -- so the mental picture that I have
15is the brothers are hanging out in the hobby
16area for two hours and they're frustrated
17because they're not being given access to the
18unit, yet someone has returned the key to the
19unit to you; is that accurate?
20A. Yes, someone had returned the key to
21me.
22Q. Okay. And why -- and would that be
23because somebody else had been given access to
24the unit?
Page 121
Back to contents1A. It seems that somebody was given access
2to the unit.
3Q. You're just not sure who?
4A. Yeah -- well, in the --
5THE WITNESS: Am I allowed to talk about
6this, or no?
7MR. BENTIVENGA: This is Exhibit 1. Yeah, go
8ahead.
9THE WITNESS: So according to the key
10read-off for this, this shows that on the 14th,
11my coworker, who also works morning shift,
12Warner, gave out the key upon -- the recipient
13is police inspection.
14BY MR. BLANDIN:
15Q. Okay. So the police are returning the
16key to you while the brothers are still there?
17A. I don't remember encountering the
18police when they gave me back the key. I just
19grabbed ahold of the key from somebody. I just
20don't remember if it's management or --
21Q. I'm not -- okay. You're telling me you
22just don't remember?
23A. Yeah, I just don't remember who --
24like, I can't recall who gave me the key. I
Page 122
Back to contents1just -- from looking at this, I did grab the key
2and put it back where it belongs, but I don't
3know who gave me the key.
4Q. All right. So I recognize you don't
5have an actual memory of the police handing you
6the key at that time --
7A. NO.
8Q. -- but the record -- Exhibit 1 reflects
9that the police were given that key the night of
10the shooting, correct?
11A. The night of the shooting, was it the
1214th?
13Q. Yeah.
14A. Then, yes, according to this --
15Q. At what time?
16A. -- it was signed out.
17According to the log, it was signed out
18at 9:54 p.m.
19Q. All right. So the police are given
20access to the unit at 9:54 p.m. the night of the
21shooting, correct?
22A. Yes.
23Q. And someone returns that key to you --
24A. Yes.
Page 123
Back to contents1Q. -- at 7:44 on the 15th, correct?
2A. Yes.
3Q. And that's while the brothers are
4there?
5A. What was the time?
6Q. You want to take a look at the other
7exhibit? It's got a time stamp on it, your
8Incident Report, Exhibit 2.
9You were saying the brothers were there
10from between 5:08 p.m. and 8:10 p.m. in the
11front lobby, right?
12A. Yes.
13Q. Okay. So, again, the time period that
14the key is returned to you that the police had
15is while the brothers are there, right?
16MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object to
17foundation. I think he's testified he doesn't
18know.
19But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
20can.
21THE WITNESS: I'm trying to remember based
22off of the report I made and the key log.
23when the brothers arrived to the lobby,
24there was no one there except for me and for
Page 124
Back to contents1Joel at the time.
2BY MR. BLANDIN:
3Q. which is around 5:08?
4A. Yeah, but --
5Q. Not the 7:00, but 5:08?
6A. Yes.
7Q. Okay. And then at some point in time,
8it looks like a couple hours later --
9A. The key was returned.
10Q. -- the key was returned, yes?
11A. I think I remember -- I think the key
12was returned to me after the brothers had left,
13and I put it away.
14Q. well, you're -- I don’t want you --
15you've been pretty good so far about telling me
16what you remember and what you don't remember,
17and I don't want you to guess.
18A. Yeah.
19Q. Your -- Exhibit 2, your Incident
20Report, shows that the brothers were present
21from 5:08 to 8:10 p.m.; is that accurate?
22A. 5 till 8, yes.
23Q. So they're there for a little over
24three hours, correct?
Page 125
Back to contents1A. Correct.
2Q. All right. And --
3A. Oh, sorry.
4Q. It's okay.
5So they're still present, according to
6your Incident Report, at 7:44 when someone gave
7you the key to put back, right? That's what the
8log shows. I know you don't have a memory of --
9MR. BENTIVENGA: Yeah, and I don't know --
10just give him an opportunity to read his report,
11too, because I think it addresses this issue.
12I don't know if you know that, but --
13THE WITNESS: I think --
14MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to the
15foundation and form of the question.
16But go ahead.
17THE WITNESS: I think the brothers left and
18then I was given the key to put back away.
19BY MR. BLANDIN:
20Q. Okay. Is that something you have a
21memory of?
22A. I can't say with confidence, so I'll
23have to say no.
24Q. Okay. The timeline that I'm trying
Page 126
Back to contents1to--
2A. Yeah.
3Q. -- establish is when all of these
4events occurred, and there aren't that many of
5them because you're not having much of a
6conversation with the brothers, they're kind of
7over -- over in the lobby area, right?
8A. Yeah.
9Q. And then something happens around 7:44
10p.m. where a key gets returned, right?
11A. Okay.
12Q. And according to your logbook, the
13brothers still would have been there, right,
14according to your Incident Report, Exhibit 2?
15A. For my incident Report, I would have
16put the time frame from where it started to
17where it ended, but there might have been -- I
18might have actually put a time where they had
19actually left. By the time 8:10 rolled around,
20that would have been the time where the incident
21had cleared.
22Q. So at 7:44, the brothers are still
23there in the lobby, right?
24A. I can't remember the time frame at this
Page 127
Back to contents1point.
2Q. Okay. Well, according to your Incident
3Report, the brothers would have still been
4present at 7:44, correct?
5MS. WEGNER: I'm going to object. That
6mischaracterizes his testimony.
7MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll join in that.
8MR. BLANDIN: Stop. You guys are
9insufferable.
10MS. WEGNER: I've had, like, five objections
11today, Stephan, so calm -- calm down.
12MR. BLANDIN: Just stop, just stop.
13BY MR. BLANDIN:
14Q. Ricky, this is not meant to trick you.
15Your report shows that the brothers were there
16from 5 -- 5:08 until 8:10, right?
17MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
18foundation.
19Go ahead, you can answer it, if you
20can.
21I think it's been asked and answered,
22too, many times.
23MR. BLANDIN: It has been. And I'm trying to
24get back on track because of your bogus
Page 128
Back to contents1objections.
2MS. WEGNER: Every time. Every time.
3BY MR. BLANDIN:
4Q. You with me, Ricky?
5A. Yes.
6Q. The brothers are there at 7:44,
7according to your Incident Report timeline,
8correct?
9A. Correct.
10Q. Okay. And then your brothers get mad
11and have the conversation amongst themselves and
12make a statement that you said was, we're going
13to shoot up this place, after the key gets
14returned to you, correct?
15MS. WEGNER: Objection. That's not what he
16testified to.
17THE WITNESS: NO, no.
18MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form, foundation,
19and that misstates his testimony.
20Go ahead, you can answer the question.
21BY MR. BLANDIN:
22Q. That timeline is not accurate?
23MR. BENTIVENGA: Same objections.
24You can answer the question.
Page 129
Back to contents1THE WITNESS: Okay. I don't think the
2brothers were in the lobby when the key was
3returned to me.
4BY MR. BLANDIN:
5Q. Okay. And I'm struggling to understand
6the basis for that statement if you have no
7memory of this.
8MR. BENTIVENGA: Is that a question? I'll
9object to form of the question.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. what is your basis of that statement if
12you don't remember it?
13A. Sorry, could you rephrase?
14Q. Sure. A couple hours ago in your
15deposition, you told me that the brothers made
16the statement shortly before you asked them to
17leave, correct?
18A. Yes, shortly before -- no, they had
19made the verbal threat. That is when I pressed
20the panic button and when I started to ask them
21+ -- that they had to leave.
22Q. Yeah, and then they left shortly after
23that, correct?
24MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection; misstates his
Page 130
Back to contents1testimony.
2Go ahead.
3THE WITNESS: No. The brothers did not leave
4after I had asked them to leave. They --
5BY MR. BLANDIN:
6Q. How long did they remain after you
7asked them to leave?
8A. I can't give a direct time frame.
9Q. well, what's your best estimate?
10A. Thirty, maybe forty minutes.
11Q. Did the brothers make the statement
12after 7:44 p.m., or do you not know?
13MR. BENTIVENGA: what statement?
14MR. BLANDIN: There's only one statement that
15he said the brothers made.
16MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to that
17characterization. They made many statements,
18which he's already testified to all of them.
19MS. WEGNER: Join.
20MR. BENTIVENGA: I object to form,
21foundation, misstates his testimony.
22Go ahead, you can answer.
23THE WITNESS: Did you -- sorry, did you ask
24if this statement was made at 7:44 or after
Page 131
Back to contents17:44?
2BY MR. BLANDIN:
3Q. So I've got, like, about five questions
4hanging out there that you've not answered and I
5keep trying to come back to you with a different
6question.
7A. Sorry.
8Q. So I'm -- here’s what we're trying to
9figure out. This key gets logged back into the
10system at 7:44, we know that, and I'm trying to
11find out when the statement the brothers made
12about -- to one another about shooting this
13building up was relative to when you put the key
14back into the system?
15MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to the --
16THE WITNESS: I see.
17MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to the form of the
18question.
19Go ahead, you can answer it.
20THE WITNESS: I want --
21BY MR. BLANDIN:
22Q. And if you don't know, you can tell me
23you don't know.
24A. Yeah. I -- I will say I don't know,
Page 132
Back to contents1yeah.
2Q. Okay.
3A. Or it’s that I don't remember.
4Q. That's fine.
5Did you call the police that night or
6did you just push the panic button?
7A. I pushed the panic button and I believe
8I messaged Deborah to contact the police.
9Q. You yourself did not contact the
10police?
11A. No, I didn't. At the time I was just
12watching, observing, and trying to listen at
13this point for what happens forward.
14Q. Do you know if Deborah called the
15police?
16A. I believe she did say she was going to
17call the police and she also pressed her panic
18button in the office.
19Q. And that was in the messaging -- the
20text messaging the two of you were doing?
21A. Yes.
22Q. And did the police arrive?
23A. They arrived, yes.
24Q. How long after you pressed the panic
Page 133
Back to contents1button was it before the police arrived?
2A. How long after? Thirty, maybe forty
3minutes. They took their time coming up.
4Q. Okay. Did you know that there were
5police officers located outside of the building?
6MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to foundation.
7You can answer, if you can.
8MS. WEGNER: Join.
9MR. BENTIVENGA: At what time?
10THE WITNESS: Let's see. At the time, no, I
11didn't know if they were close enough where I
12could see them outside the building.
13BY MR. BLANDIN:
14Q. Did you know that there were police
15that were regularly stationed or assigned to the
16corner of Wabash and Madison Avenue outside of
17the building?
18MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to foundation.
19MS. WEGNER: Join.
20THE WITNESS: I didn't know if there was any
21police that were at the corner of Wabash or
22nearby as I did not want to leave Joel by
23himself at the desk. I stood and sat by him the
24entirety of the time.
Page 134
Back to contents1BY MR. BLANDIN:
2Q. Okay. In your report on Page 1 of
3Exhibit 2 on Sudler Bates-stamped-page 9, it
4reads, I almost forgot that there was a third
5person who arrived with the two brothers.
6Do you remember who that person was?
7A. He was the principal of the school
8where Abnerd had worked.
9Q. And had you ever met him before?
10A. NO.
11Q. Have you seen him since?
12A. NO.
13Q. Is he on the video camera, the video
14image that you've seen that you compiled?
15A. Not for this night, no.
16Q. well, for - was he there any other
17night that you're aware of?
18A. I saw him again when the brothers came
19back to the building. He came with them to see
20if they can gain access on that day.
21Q. Okay. what was that date?
22A. I'm going to say the 6th.
23MR. BENTIVENGA: Okay. Don't guess. If you
24know, you know. If you don't, don't -- don't
Page 135
Back to contents1guess or speculate.
2THE WITNESS: I don't remember the exact
3date.
4BY MR. BLANDIN:
5Q. Well, was it within a couple of days of
6the 15th or some other longer period of time?
7A. Not too long off. They -- I don’t
8remember the exact date.
9Q. Okay. In any event, was the principal
10there the entire time from 5:08 to 8:10 p.m.
11with the brothers?
12A. No, he wasn't there that long.
13Q. How long was he there?
14A. Twenty, thirty minutes.
15Q. Was that at the beginning, the middle,
16or the end of the three hours that the brothers
17were there?
18A. The beginning.
19Q. And did you -- did you talk to the
20principal?
21A. He just stated that he was the
22principal of the school that employed Abnerd
23Joseph.
24Q. Okay. And did he say why he was there?
Page 136
Back to contents1A. Just to support the family.
2Q. Okay. Did he ask you or Joel for
3access to the unit?
4A. I do not remember at this time.
5Q. Were the brothers there -- I'm reading
6the report. It says, when the brothers left the
7first time, the cops had finished what they were
8doing and pulled out.
9were the brothers there multiple times
10that day?
11A. The first time they showed up, they
12were there for the time frame I posted, and that
13was it for that day. They came back another day
14afterwards.
15Q. I'm not following --
16MR. BENTIVENGA: He's pointing you to a part
17of the report.
18Aren't you, Stephan?
19BY MR. BLANDIN:
20Q. SoI -- yeah, so I'm -- your e-mail is
21dated on the 15th at 8:45 p.m., so that’s 35
22minutes after the brothers left, right,
23according to your Incident Report?
24MR. BENTIVENGA: why don't you give him a
Page 137
Back to contents1second so he can read it?
2MR. BLANDIN: Sure.
3MR. BENTIVENGA: Go ahead and read your
4report.
5(witness reviewing document.)
6MR. BENTIVENGA: Did you have a chance to
7read page -- this first page?
8THE WITNESS: This first page?
9MR. BENTIVENGA: Go ahead and read that.
10MR. BLANDIN: Let me know when you're done.
11(Witness reviews document.)
12THE WITNESS: I see. what was the --
13MR. BLANDIN: I don't remember. I'll ask you
14a new one.
15You're good to go?
16THE WITNESS: Yeah.
17BY MR. BLANDIN:
18Q. Okay. Let's start with this: The
19Incident Report says those involved were Ricky
20Matt, Ray, Joel, and Deborah.
21I know who Joel and Deborah were. who
22were Matt and Ray?
23A. Matt and Ray were two maintenance staff
24in the building.
Page 138
Back to contents1Q. Okay. what was their role in this?
2A. They were observing.
3Q. Okay. Did they overhear any of these
4exchanges?
5A. I can't say whether or not they did.
6I...
7Q. Okay. The picture that I get from
8reading your report is that the brothers and --
9the front door staff had multiple exchanges with
10the brothers on the 15th and that the brothers
11came and left multiple times on the 15th; is
12that accurate?
13A. After reading it, it does somewhat
14refresh the memory.
15Q. Okay. So were there -- were the
16brothers coming and going during these three
17hours?
18A. I believe the brothers would enter and
19exit the lobby because of -- the car that
20belonged to Abnerd was parked outside.
21Q. I'm not sure what that has to do with
22my question.
23were the brothers coming and going?
24Were they -- according to your report, the
Page 139
Back to contents1brothers are coming and going --
2A. Yes,
3Q. -- multiple times over those three
4hours. Is that correct or do you not remember?
5A. I-can't remember for a fact, so I'll
6state that.
7Q. Okay. All right. The brothers -- in
8reading the report, it appears to me that the
9brothers were told initially that they could not
10go into the unit because the police had control
11over the unit; is that accurate?
12A. Yes.
13Q. Okay. And then at some point that
14evening, the police released control of the unit
15back to Deborah Romero and the building; is that
16accurate?
17MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to
18foundation.
19If you know, go ahead.
20THE WITNESS: I do not know when the unit was
21released to the building for the brothers to
22gain access.
23BY MR. BLANDIN:
24Q. Well, your report says that "The reason
Page 140
Back to contents1why they were upset was because they wanted to
2go up to the unit and collect the personal
3belongings of 2905 at first."
4That was the original time the brothers
5came in, right?
6A. Yes.
7Q. and they were told they couldn't
8because it was under police control, correct?
9A. Correct.
10Q. All right. So the brothers left and
11then they came back, and when they came back --
12strike that.
13The report reads, “when the brothers
14left the first time, the cops have finished what
15there were doing and pulled out."
16A. Yes.
17Q. Quote, Even though they pulled out, no
18one can still go up to the unit until the next
19steps were met by the owner and the brothers
20prove who they claim or who they say they are,
21end quote.
22Is that accurate?
23A. Yes,
24Q. Meaning that the brothers came back a
Page 141
Back to contents1second time and they were told that even though
2the police were no longer investigating, that
3they still couldn't have access; is that true?
4A. Yes,
5Q. Did you tell them that or did Joel tell
6them that?
7A. No, I believe -- no, I don't remember.
8Q. Did Deborah tell them that?
9A. I don't remember.
10Q. Okay. Was Deborah now telling the
11brothers, after they came back when access had
12been returned from the police department, that
13she would not give them permission and that they
14would have to hire an attorney to clear
15everything up? Did that information come from
16Deborah?
17A. I can't remember clearly.
18Q. Well, what you --
19A. I did document it, but --
20Q. Yeah, what you wrote was, "Deborah
21stated they will now need to get an attorney..."
22who shared that information with the
23brothers? was that you, Joel, or Deborah?
24A. I believe that was Deborah.
Page 142
Back to contents1Q. Okay. And that's when the brothers
2became upset --
3A. Yes.
4Q. -- is that correct?
5A. Yes.
6Q. Okay. I'm looking at the second page,
7which is Sudler page 10. It has a different
8time. It says 8:50 to 9:20.
9Did the brothers come back between 8:50
10p.m. and 9:20 p.m.?
11MR. BENTIVENGA: Why don't you give him a
12chance to read it?
13(Witness reviewing document.)
14THE WITNESS: Right. Okay. Okay. Okay. I
15remember this day.
16what was the question?
17BY MR. BLANDIN:
18Q. Sure. The second -- what you're
19calling -- let's see, what do you call it? You
20refer to it as “Incident Report 8:50 p.m. - 9:20
21p.m."
22Did the brothers come back between 8:50
23and 9:20, or is this when the police -- is this
24after the police arrived?
Page 143
Back to contents1A. I don’t know.
2Q. And if you don't remember, you can tell
3me you don't remember,
4A. Yeah, I don't remember.
5Q. Okay. Were you -- it appears from this
6Incident Report that the police had arrived and
7a-- and a police report was filled out before
88:50 p.m.; is that correct?
9A. Yes.
10Q. Okay. All right. And then the next
11exhibit is Sudler Exhibit 11 [sic]. it's an
12e-mail from The Legacy manager dated Saturday,
13September 16th, and it's directed to The Legacy
14engineer, The Legacy assistant manager, The
15Legacy administrator, Legacy front desk. It's
16regarding unit 2905.
17A. Okay.
18Q. Is this the first e-mail that you were
19made aware of regarding the shooting, or is this
20a later e-mail regarding the shooting?
21MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to
22foundation.
23But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
24can.
Page 144
Back to contents1THE WITNESS: This was -- yes, this was the
2e-mail from how I was first informed about the
3incident.
4BY MR. BLANDIN:
5Q. Okay. The -- you were telling me
6something earlier about Abnerd's car being out
7in front of the building.
8Do you remember that?
9A. Yes.
10Q. Why was Abnerd's car out in front of 60
11East Monroe on the --
12MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to --
13BY MR. BLANDIN:
14Q. -- 15th?
15MR. BENTIVENGA: Oh, sorry. Object to
16foundation.
17You can answer it, if you know.
18THE WITNESS: I don't know why he parked his
19car up front. we had spots up front where
20people pay the street parking and park their car
21there. Sometimes tenants park their car there,
22sometimes they don't. There's a section where
23the street -- you pay for the parking spot right
24there by the front of our building. There's a
Page 145
Back to contents1section where there's no parking. where he
2parked his car, it was in a designated area
3where you can pay and park.
4BY MR. BLANDIN:
5Q. You're saying one of Abnerd's brothers
6parked Abnerd -- was it Abnerd's car or the
7brother's car?
8A. I believe -- I don't remember. But
9that was -- that was Abnerd's car. That was one
10of the items they wanted to retrieve.
11Q. How -- all right. So I'm a little
12confused. Are you saying that they were trying
13to get the keys for that car?
14A. I don't believe they ever brought up to
15me that they desired to get the car, but I was
16told that that was the deceased's car.
17Q. All right. So I'm confused about the
18significance or relevance of their car being out
19in front of the building.
20A. It was just a -- it was just a
21statement for why they were coming back to the
22building, for one of the items they wanted to
23get back.
24Q. Okay. And did you tell them that they
Page 146
Back to contents1needed to move the car because it was parked
2in--
3A. NO, I didn't state anything like that,
4that they had to move the car. It was just one
5of Abnerd's belongings.
6Q. All right. So the brothers were
7identifying to you and Joel, hey, our brother's
8car is parked out front, we're trying to move it
9away because it's not parked in a legal spot --
10MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to
11foundation about --
12BY MR. BLANDIN:
13Q. -- is that accurate?
14MR. BENTIVENGA: -- illegal spot.
15But if you know.
16THE WITNESS: Yeah, so from that spot where
17the brother's car was parked, I don't believe it
18was an illegal spot. I think that was a spot
19where you can park the car.
20BY MR. BLANDIN:
21Q. All right. I'm confused here because I
22thought you were telling me the whole purpose of
23this was that the car was parked in a place it
24wasn't supposed to be.
Page 147
Back to contents1A. NO, no, no. The car was parked in the
2front of the building in a spot where it can be
3parked.
4Q. Okay.
5A. I was just stating the comment that --
6there's a section where there's a loading
7zone --
8Q. Yep.
9A. -- you know, in and out. You can't
10park there.
11Q. Sure.
12A. And then where his car was parked,
13that's where it was able to park.
14Q. And it had been there prior to the
15shooting?
16MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to foundation.
17If you know.
18THE WITNESS: I can't state what time -- what
19date the car was parked there originally, but it
20was parked up front.
21BY MR. BLANDIN:
22Q. All right. And hopefully this is my
23last question about this car, the brothers did
24not have the key to that car, they wanted the
Page 148
Back to contents1keys to that car; is that accurate?
2A. Yes.
3Q. Okay.
4MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to foundation,
5but he's answered it.
6BY MR. BLANDIN:
7Q. And then the last page, Sudler 12, do
8you recognize the handwriting?
9A. NO, I can't say whose handwriting this
10is.
11Q. Okay. The note -- on the left side is
12photograph of the lobby.
13Do you recognize who's shown in the
14photograph?
15A. It is blurry, but those are the two
16brothers.
17Q. Okay. Do you know which one made the
18statement about shooting the building?
19A. The one on the left. It's hard to see,
20but he's the one in the sunglasses and the --
21he's holding something in his hand.
22Q. Okay. And there's somebody sitting at
23the front desk. Is that you or is that Joel?
24A. No, the one with the arms that's shown
Page 149
Back to contents1on the camera, that is me.
2Q. Okay. The -- the note to the right of
3the photograph reads, "Charles Jay,” and it has
4a phone number. Then underneath, it says,
5"Brother to Abnerd Joseph, 2905, just flew in”
6-- something -- "at police station.” And then
7underneath that, it reads, "Need owner's
8permission,” Paulette's cell phone number and
9lists her phone number.
10was this note handed to you?
11THE WITNESS: I can't say, no -- I can't
12say -- yeah, the answer is no, I don't remember
13seeing this note.
14BY MR. BLANDIN:
15Q. All right. Do you know -- are you
16familiar with a company called No Emergency?
17A. NO.
18Q. Are you familiar with a company called
19BOSS, B-0-S-S.
20A. NO.
21Q. All right. You did not receive any
22type of certification or emergency training from
23either of those companies while you worked at
24The Legacy; is that accurate?
Page 150
Back to contents1A. Yes.
2Q. My understanding is that you were
3technically employed by The Legacy; is that
4accurate?
5A. Yes.
6Q. But you received your supervision and
7direction from Sudler management, Deborah
8Romero, and the assistant manager; is that also
9accurate?
10MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to the form,
11foundation.
12But you can answer it.
13THE WITNESS: When it comes to the training
14for how to treat the tenants of the building,
15Deborah gave me pointers about how to be polite,
16to greet guests. Adrian also gave me pointers
17about interacting with the guests.
18BY MR. BLANDIN:
19Q. So maybe my -- I'll try to be more
20specific.
21Were your -- were your bosses Deborah
22Romero and the assistant property manager?
23MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
24- foundation.
Page 151
Back to contents1Go ahead, you can answer.
2THE WITNESS: They were the building managers
3and I did report to them. I can't say that --
4if they were my boss or not.
5BY MR. BLANDIN:
6Q. They're the ones who hired you?
7A. Okay.
8MR. BENTIVENGA: Same objections.
9Go ahead, if you can -- if you know.
10THE WITNESS: Deborah did talk to me about
11how to take care of things here and there, so
12I'll say yes. But for -- the other individual
13who trained me was Adrian, the head doorman.
14BY MR. BLANDIN:
15Q. Yeah, I'm asking about who hired you.
16A. Oh, who hired me. 1 will say Deborah.
17I talked to her, gave her my resume, gave her my
18information. So I'll say she hired me.
19Q. Okay.
20A. In between the management office, the
21ones I mostly spoke to was Deborah for the
22hiring process.
23Q. Okay. Great.
24MR. BLANDIN: Let me just check with
Page 152
Back to contents1Isabella, and I'm almost done.
2THE WITNESS: Okay.
3(Brief pause.)
4BY MR. BLANDIN:
5Q. Did you ever ask Joel if Jonah should
6leave -- should have left his post and gone up
7in the elevator to encounter Abnerd?
8MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection; asked and
9answered.
10You can answer it.
11THE WITNESS: Yes.
12BY MR. BLANDIN:
13Q. What did he say?
14A. In Joel's opinion?
15Q. Yes.
16A. NO.
17Q. How did that conversation go?
18A. It -- Joel didn't think it was -- he
19didn't think it was a comfortable idea to go up
20there.
21Q. Okay. Why not? what did he say to
22-you?
23A. Joel said the cops should have come
24here faster since everyone kept on calling them.
Page 153
Back to contents1Q. Yeah, what does that have to do with
2whether Jonah should have gone up or not?
3MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to the form of the
4question.
5You can answer it, though.
6THE WITNESS: Joel didn't like the idea of
7Jonah going up there like that.
8BY MR. BLANDIN:
9Q. And that's what I'm trying to
10understand, why not?
11MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to foundation
12because now you're asking --
13MR. BLANDIN: No, I'm asking --
14MR. BENTIVENGA: -- Ricky about what's in
15Joel's mind.
16MR. BLANDIN: No, I'm not. I'm asking what
17he said to Ricky.
18MS. WEGNER: I'm going to join.
19MR. BLANDIN: Here, let me give a clear
20question and answer.
21BY MR. BLANDIN:
22Q. What did Joel say to you in terms of
23why he didn't believe that Jonah should have
24gone and -- left his post and gone up in the
Page 154
Back to contents1elevator to encounter Abnerd? why did he think
2that was wrong?
3MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
4and foundation.
5Go ahead, you can answer, if you can.
6THE WITNESS: Joel thought that the situation
7had reached the area where it was dangerous. He
8brought up how in -- how a floor of people came
9down into the lobby to discuss the screaming.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. And?
12A. And he felt that it was too risky to go
13up there.
14Q. Okay. Did -- did Joel bring this to
15Deborah's attention during the staff meeting?
16A. Joel didn't arrive for the meetings.
17He was still too sick to travel that often.
18Q. Was -- did you bring that up or did
19someone bring that up at the meetings with
20Deborah?
21A. Yes.
22Q. who brought it to Deborah's attention?
23A. who was it? I believe it was our
24overnight worker, Dave.
Page 155
Back to contents1Q. Do you remember Dave's last name?
2A. I do not. Sorry.
3Q. And what did Deborah say in response to
4Dave?
5A. Deborah stated Jonah felt comfortable
6going up there and he wanted to try and help the
7situation that was happening.
8Q. Oy.
9A. Try to deescalate.
10Q. and was there any response from Dave or
11the other doormen?
12A. Well, Dave, he -- what did he say? I
13can't quote him for what he exactly said, but he
14just said it -- he just stated he wouldn't feel
15comfortable going up there like that.
16Q. Okay. Did Joel -- the night the two
17brothers had the encounter with you on the 15th,
18during that time period did you overhear Joel
19tell the two brothers that Jay should not have
20gone -- that -- excuse me, Jonah should not have
21gone up on the night of the 14th --
22A. NO--
23Q. -- to encounter the brother?
24A. No, I didn't hear anything from that --
Page 156
Back to contents1from Joel directing towards the brother.
2Q. Did you overhear Joel tell the brothers
3that had he been working that shift, that the
4shooting would not have occurred?
5A. No, Joel didn't say anything like that.
6Q. Were you there the entire time, the
7three hours that the brothers were coming and
8going, sitting with Joel?
9A. Yes, I sat next to him the entirety. I
10didn't want him to be alone.
11Q. Okay. What -- at what point did you
12leave that night?
13A. Let me see when my log ended at.
14I want to say I left around 9:00. I
15posted the Incident Report by 8:45, but I really
16just -- I had ended my shift by 9:00, but even
17when -- I still kind of lingered just to make
18sure, okay, is everything okay, can I go? Like,
19I was just hiding in the -- not so much as
20hiding, but I was standing in the employee break
21room and my -- after I clocked out just to --
22just in case.
23Q. we've talked about this in different
24bits and pieces, and I want to see if I can put
Page 157
Back to contents1it together.
2In your conversations with Deborah and
3the doormen that took place a couple of days
4after the shooting, it was discussed whether or
5not the doormen should leave their shift and go
6to investigate, right?
7A. Right.
8Q. And in terms of whether an individual
9doorman should go with someone who has a gun to
10investigate, that was also discussed, correct?
11A. That part of it wasn't discussed, but
12it was -- well, it was discussed, but it wasn't
13discussed as a protocol step.
14Q. well, my understanding is that there
15weren't any new protocols during the remaining
16four to five months you worked there about
17anything; is that true?
18A. During the four to five months that I
19was there, they presented us with a packet, a
20flip book, about the various situations you can
21come up with as a doorman, fires, floods were
22the situations in the book. But the discussions
23for putting together an actual plan were still
24being put together by the outside party, I
Page 158
Back to contents1believe.
2Q. Okay. was there any discussion at all
3about what you're supposed to do of bringing
4someone with a gun to encounter a dangerous
5situation even if you're -- you're comfortable
6with it?
7MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object;
8asked and answered.
9Go ahead.
10Form and foundation. I think we've
11gone over all this long ago.
12MR. BLANDIN: Close. Well, I don't know if
13it's long or not, but it's close.
14THE WITNESS: It was discussed.
15BY MR. BLANDIN:
16Q. And to the best of your recollection,
17what was said?
18MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection; asked and
19answered. This was answered long ago.
20Go ahead, you can answer it again.
21THE WITNESS: I just -- I'm really trying to
22think back about what we were talking about in
23that meeting room.
24MR. BENTIVENGA: Remember, don't guess or
Page 159
Back to contents1speculate. If you know, go ahead and testify --
2BY MR. BLANDIN:
3Q. Here, let me do it this way. I'm
4trying to put myself in the shoes of the people
5who worked in that building. This had to be a
6shocking event --
7MR. BENTIVENGA: Is that a question?
8BY MR. BLANDIN:
9Q. -- is that accurate?
10A. Yes, we were all shocked.
11Q. And my guess is that you all talked
12about it quite a bit; is that accurate?
13A. Yes, the front desk discussed it.
14Q. And my guess is that one of the things
15you talked about was whether this could have
16been prevented had Jonah stayed at the front
17desk: is that accurate?
18MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to the
19form and foundation of the question as to
20whether something could or could not have been
21prevented.
22But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
23can. He's asking for your memory, if you
24remember those conversations.
Page 160
Back to contents1THE WITNESS: Yes, we did have a conversation
2about that.
3BY MR. BLANDIN:
4Q. Okay. And one of things that you just
5told me you talked about was whether or not
6Jonah should be bringing or going with somebody
7who has a gun, even if he's comfortable,
8encountering a dangerous situation; is that
9right?
10A. Yes, we did discuss that.
11Q. And what was concluded about all of
12those things? What were you supposed to do
13going forward?
14MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection; asked and
15answered. He's answered that question many,
16many times in this deposition.
17But go ahead, you can answer it again.
18THE WITNESS: We were still trying to put
19together what should and should not have been
20done moving forward.
21BY MR. BLANDIN:
22Q. There was no conclusion?
23A. Not a conclusion that I was there to
24see.
Page 161
Back to contents1Q. Okay. Over the five months that you
2were there, Deborah Romero did not present you
3with any changes in policies or procedures or
4training; is that correct?
5A. They did give us that packet, like I
6said. But as far as it goes for the policies
7and changes, it was still being -- they didn't
8give me anything because it was still being
9discussed.
10Q. Okay. Did any of the staff leave or
11quit because of the shooting?
12MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to
13foundation. I don’t know how he would know
14that.
15But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
16can.
17THE WITNESS: No, not because of the
18shooting.
19BY MR. BLANDIN:
20Q. Random question. Abnerd Joseph was
21black. Do you know of any other residents in
22the building who were black?
23A. I mean, I ran into several black --
24other several black tenants.
Page 162
Back to contents1Q. Of the -- of the population of the
2building, any idea how many were black?
3A. Oh, I can't give a statement like that.
4People came and went from inside there.
5Q. Do you know if it was more or less than
6ten black people who were residents of The
7Legacy while you worked there?
8MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to foundation.
9THE WITNESS: I can’t state that either.
10There were times where I would be there, I see
11black, I see white, I see Hispanics. People did
12come and go.
13BY MR. BLANDIN:
14Q. I recognize that. I'm just trying to
15get a sense from you as to what the ratio --
16what the population of the building was.
17Were there very many black people, or
18is it accurate to say that there were very few?
19MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to foundation.
20You can answer, if you can.
21THE WITNESS: I can't answer that because, I
22mean, I met Abnerd and I've met other tenants
23that were black, but it's not like I went
24through every -- floor to floor to see, hey, are
Page 163
Back to contents1you black or are you white. I just -- I can't
2really say the duration of black and white that
3would live there.
4MR. BLANDIN: That's all I have. Thank you.
5MR. BENTIVENGA: I just have a couple
6follow-up questions, Ricky.
7EXAMINATION
8BY MR. BENTIVENGA:
9Q. Ricky, take a look at Exhibit 2, the
10page that has Sudler 9, which I think is the
11first page of that exhibit.
12A. Okay.
13Q. All right. You were asked questions
14about the key that is listed in Exhibit 1 for
15Unit 2905, correct?
16A. Yes.
17Q. All right. If you look at the last
18sentence of -- of the first page of Exhibit 2,
19it says, "Deborah got a new key for the
20Unit 2905, but made it clear only the unit owner
21can go up to the room and sign out the key.”
22Do you see that?
23A. Yes.
24Q. All right. Is Exhibit 1 where you
Page 164
Back to contents1register the key that you were provided on the
2evening of September 15th, 2023? Is that the
3new key that Deborah had for Unit 2905 that you
4have reflected in your report of September 15,
52023?
6A. Yes. I believe I can remember Deborah
7had another key made for that unit and I got
8back the original one from the cabinet.
9MR. BLANDIN: I'm sorry, the original one
10from whom?
11THE WITNESS: The cabinets. The key that was
12given to me to put back in the cabinet was the
13one that had the electric key tag on there, so I
14put it back in there.
15BY MR. BENTIVENGA:
16Q. Okay. And as you sit here today, do
17you -- you don't recall who it was that handed
18you that key that you put in the cabinet and
19registered in Exhibit 1; is that true?
20A. Yes, I can’t remember who gave me the
21key.
22Q. All right. with respect to your
23report, again, marked as Exhibit 2, it's on
24Page 1 of the exhibit, Exhibit 2, Sudler No. 9,
Page 165
Back to contents1that's your report of September 15, 2023,
2regarding your interaction and Joel's
3interaction at the front desk with two of the
4brothers of Abnerd Joseph, correct?
5A. Correct.
6Q. All right. And you had testified
7earlier in your deposition that you thought that
8encounter may have been 7 to 10 or 12 days after
9the shooting event on September 14, 2023. You
10were wrong about that?
11A. Yes.
12Q. All right. Does this report marked as
13Exhibit 2 refresh your recollection that that
14interaction that you had with the two brothers
15where one of the brothers said -- or threatened
16to shoot up the building, that that occurred on
17September 15th, 2023, during the evening hours
18between 5:08 p.m. and 8:10 p.m.?
19A. Yes.
20Q. All right. And you -- you yourself
21heard that threat from one of the brothers of
22Abnerd Joseph on the evening of September 15,
232023, that they were threatening to shoot up the
24building, correct?
Page 166
Back to contents1A. Yes.
2Q. All right. At that time, did you know
3whether or not one or both of the brothers were
4armed with a gun?
5A. No, I didn't know if they were or not.
6Q. Okay. All right. The discussions that
7you've talked about that you had with the fellow
8doormen about this, all of those discussions, of
9course, occurred after everyone knew the outcome
10of this event, correct?
11A. Yes.
12Q. Jonah, when he was making his decisions
13on the evening of September 14, 2023, he was
14making his decisions going forward without
15knowing, number one, who was up there, correct?
16A. Correct.
17Q. And without knowing what he was going
18to confront, right?
19A. Yes.
20Q. Right. So he had to make his decision
21in real time, right?
22A. Yes.
23Q. All right. And based on what you've
24learned, you understand that Jonah felt
Page 167
Back to contents1comfortable going to investigate when a number
2of people had come down and asked him to go up
3there?
4A. Yes.
5Q. Okay. We're almost two years now from
6the event of September 14, 2023, there's some
7‘things that you just don't recall because of the
8passage of time; is that right?
9A. Correct.
10Q. You've tried to give your best estimate
11based on your memory and based on the documents
12that you've been shown, correct?
13A. Correct.
14MR. BENTIVENGA: All right. Those are all
15the questions I have.
16MS. WEGNER: I don't have any questions based
17on that.
18MR. STEWART: I'm going to be brief.
19Stephan. If you have any follow-up, maybe it
20makes sense to --
21MR. BLANDIN: Sure,
22MR. STEWART: - get your part done because I
23I think I'm going to take --
24MR. BLANDIN: Sure.
Page 168
Back to contents1MR. STEWART: -- it in a different direction.
2FURTHER EXAMINATION
3BY MR. BLANDIN:
4Q. You were present when the police
5arrived after you hit the panic button?
6A. Yes.
7MR. BENTIVENGA: On the 15th you're talking
8about?
9MR. BLANDIN: On the 15th.
10BY MR. BLANDIN:
11Q. That's the only time you hit the panic
12button, right?
13A. Yes.
14Q. And do you remember how many officers
15arrived?
16A. Two.
17Q. And how long were they there?
18A. Thirty to fifty minutes.
19Q. Did they appear to take your concerns
20seriously?
21A. Honestly, no.
22Q. Why not?
23A. By the time the police officers
24arrived, the brothers had left. And when the
Page 169
Back to contents1police arrived, I let -- Deborah came out
2probably after seeing them on the camera. I
3can't remember if I messaged her, letting her
4know they were here. But she was upset with
5them because of the time delay that there was.
6Even I was upset with them.
7And I was explaining, we called you
8guys, I pressed that panic button close to 12
9times -- or more than just once trying to alert
10that office. And, you know, she was saying she
11was pressing the panic button too. And we're
12letting them know the brothers were here. My
13manager was in her office, but me and Joel,
14we're in the front desk. If the threat they
15made was legit, where was I going to hide?
16I was explaining to the officers there
17was just me and Joel standing right here. I
18could possibly run or anything, but Joel, I
19mean, he was a skeleton at that point, he wasn't
20going to get away. So I was trying to tell the
21officers what kept you?
22Q. And what did they say?
23A. They say there was traffic.
24Q. Okay.
Page 170
Back to contents1A. I'm, like, traffic.
2Q. And did you -- strike that.
3what -- why didn’t you take any action
4to have anybody go out and hail down a police
5officer?
6A. At that time that would have been a
7good idea to do, but I was messaging Deborah, I
8was watching the brothers. I was mainly too
9focused and thinking and watching. I wasn't
10thinking about having someone go out there and
11hail a cop.
12Q. well, during the half hour or so after
13the brothers made this threat before they left,
14it didn't occur to you to go out and get a
15police officer?
16A. I can't -- I didn't want to leave Joel
17by himself. I wasn't aware or --
18Q. What were you going to do for Joel if
19the brothers started shooting?
20A. Well, there would be two caskets for us
21then.
22Q. Exactly. So why didn't you go out and
23hail a police officer if you -- if you took this
24threat seriously?
Page 171
Back to contents1MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to the
2form of the question and foundation because
3you're assuming that there was a police officer
4out there. and they didn't come for a long
5time. So I object to the form of the question
6and foundation. How would he know whether there
7was someone out there?
8But go ahead, you can answer.
9THE WITNESS: It was a gamble if I had come
10back -- if I had stepped out from the front
11desk. For the most part, when the brothers
12came, I was seated and they were already
13agitated. So if I had stood up, it could have
14been a sign of aggression, and then I could have
15been attacked if I --
16BY MR. BLANDIN:
17Q. Sure. Let's go through this.
18The brothers did not make a threat to
19you, they were talking amongst themselves; we've
20already established that, correct?
21MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
22and foundation. I think that misstates the
23testimony.
24But go ahead, you can answer.
Page 172
Back to contents1THE WITNESS: SO I am. So the brothers did
2issue -- not directed to us, but they just made
3a statement.
4BY MR. BLANDIN:
5Q. Okay.
6A. But --
7MR. BENTIVENGA: A threat's a threat.
8MR. BLANDIN: Good luck with that.
9BY MR. BLANDIN:
10Q. Were you sitting down when you
11overheard that statement?
12A. Yes, I was sitting at the desk.
13Q. And where was Joel?
14A. He was sitting next to me.
15Q. Okay. And how far were the brothers
16from you when you overheard this statement?
17A. I would say, let me think, from where
18I'm sitting, it would be where the desk is from,
19like -- from where that table is down there
20(indicating), that's how far they were from us.
21Q. Okay. So 15, 20 feet?
22A. Fifty, twenty, maybe twenty-two feet.
23Q. Okay. So 22 feet away.
24were the brothers standing or sitting
Page 173
Back to contents1when you overheard this?
2A. They were standing.
3Q. And is this where the furniture in the
4lobby is?
5A. Yes.
6Q. And where relative to the furniture
7were they?
8A. They were standing on the mat for the
9lobby. They weren't close to the furniture. I
10would say from the furniture, maybe 10 feet
11away.
12Q. So this would have been in front of the
13revolving doors?
14A. Yes.
15Q. And how far from the revolving doors
16were they?
17A. From the revolving door to where they
18were --
19MR. BENTIVENGA: You're talking about north
20of the -- of the doors?
21MR. BLANDIN: Yeah, yeah.
22MR. BENTIVENGA: I object to form and
23foundation.
Page 174
Back to contents1BY MR. BLANDIN:
2Q. Yeah, what was the -- how far away were
3the brothers from the revolving doors when they
4made this statement to one another?
5A. They were positioned -- I want to say
6they -- in the middle of the lobby on the --
7closer to the front desk than the furniture from
8the revolving door, maybe seven, eight feet
9away.
10Q. Okay. So they would have been standing
11to the -- is that to the -- the north of the
12revolving doors?
13A. what would -- what would north be?
14MR. BENTIVENGA: So Monroe iS east/west.
15BY MR. BLANDIN:
16Q. If you don't know, you can tell me you
17don't know.
18A. NO, I don't know exactly like that.
19Q. That's fine.
20A. So how I can explain it is, say I'm
21sitting here (indicating) and this is where the
22desk was (indicating), the revolving door is
23right there (indicating), the brothers were
24standing right here (indicating), and then
Page 175
Back to contents1that's where the furniture -- where the couch
2and the waiting area was.
3Q. And with your cell phone, at any point
4in time did you -- did you text or call 911?
5A. I didn't know how to text 911. I was
6too -- I was afraid to take out my phone and put
7it like that (indicating), okay, because after
8the panic button was pressed, I was just waiting
9for the panic button response to work.
10Q. Did the brothers ever directly threaten
11you or Joel?
12MR. BENTIVENGA: I'll object to the form and
13foundation. I think he's already testified to
14what the threat was.
15But go ahead, you can answer.
16THE WITNESS: The threat wasn't directed at
17us, but the threat was there. And I've seen
18people make good on threats that just said it
19like that.
20BY MR. BLANDIN:
21Q. Okay. Tell me about that. what have
22you seen?
23A. This goes back to my times in school
24time and in security work where I had employees
Page 176
Back to contents1pulling the locks in the warehouse. Two
2warehouse coworkers were arguing at each other
3left and right. Threats were made in the air
4about how I'm going to beat you up or forget
5this job, forget all of you, don't mess with me,
6I'm going to smack -- I've seen people make good
7on those threats.
8Q. What have you seen them do?
9A. I've just seen the push, the shove, the
10slap for one.
11Q. Okay. You're talking about situations
12where one individual threatened another
13individual, correct?
14A. There was indications where that
15happened, but there was other times where they
16just said, don't mess with me, I'm going to --
17but, yeah, it was direct.
18Q. I didn't hear you.
19A. Sorry, it was direct.
20Q. Yeah, you're telling me you've heard
21threats where one person has threatened another
22individual and they followed through on that --
23A. Yes, Sir.
24Q. -- that's what you're describing?
Page 177
Back to contents1I'm asking you, have you heard somebody
2say -- make some offhanded comment about
3shooting up a building that was followed through
4on?
5A. I haven't seen the situation where that
6happened, but I have seen where people would
7just cause destruction of property. I was
8worried about whether they would attack me or
9Joel, or I was worried that they just might grab
10one of the vases from the counter that they were
11standing next to, smash it on the floor, smash
12it on the mirror. I was just observing,
13watching and I -- to see what would happen next.
14Q. Okay. And did you ask Deborah to call
15-- to call 911?
16A. I did message Deborah to -- I do
17believe I mentioned to her to call the police.
18Q. And do you know if she did?
19A. I can't say for certainty, but I
20believe so.
21Q. You mentioned that there were two other
22individuals, two other maintenance staff. where
23were they during all this?
24A. when the -- when Deborah came out of
Page 178
Back to contents1the office and I was in the lobby, Matt and Ray
2came around the corner also to observe and
3watch.
4Q. And they were there the entire time?
5A. I can't say they were there when they
6first came in, but they came in a little later.
7Q. Okay. And did you ask -- did you ask
8either of them to go out and hail a police
9officer?
10A. NO, no, I --
11Q. Did you ask either of them to call the
12police?
13A. No, I didn’t.
14Q. Okay. were they present when this --
15this statement was made between the two
16brothers?
17A. No, it was just me and Joel in the
18lobby.
19Q. Okay. Is there a reason you didn't ask
20one of them to contact the police or go out and
21get the police?
22A. At the time I still wasn't thinking
23straight. I was just too focused on observing
24and watching how they may react or what could
Page 179
Back to contents1happen.
2Q. At any point in time did either brother
3direct a threat to you or any other human being
4that you overheard?
5MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
6foundation. He's already testified about the
7threat that was made loud enough for him to
8hear.
9Go ahead, you can answer.
10THE WITNESS: The threat wasn't direct, but
11it was said loudly. There was a volume tone
12between they were having -- where they were
13having clear conversations with themselves and
14then they would have loud, how would you say,
15volumed-up conversations. And the conversation
16where the threat for the statement was made was
17one where it was said aloud.
18BY MR. BLANDIN:
19Q. Okay. And what I'm asking is: was a
20threat ever made to a human being? Did you ever
21overhear any threat being made to a human being?
22MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
23and foundation. It's been asked and answered.
24Go ahead.
Page 180
Back to contents1THE WITNESS: When -- the threat wasn’t made
2to me, but I'm in the lobby, I'm a part of the
3building. The threat could have been for the
4building. But I work for the building. They
5could have turned their attention towards me if
6they decided to go through with it.
7BY MR. BLANDIN:
8Q. And you were worried that they might
9break vases and break a mirror?
10A. Yes.
11Q. And why were you worried about that?
12Were they being violent?
13A. They were being aggressive. They were
14talking loudly. There were times where I saw
15people where the conversation had started where
16they were aggressive and loudly. Next thing you
17know, an individual grabs a vase, throws it on
18the floor, grabs a vase, throws it at a person.
19Q. You've seen that before?
20A. It has happened to me.
21Q. It's happened to you at The Legacy?
22A. No, at my family home.
23Q. Okay. So in your family home, when
24people get upset, they break things and smash
Page 181
Back to contents1windows and vases?
2A. They weren't part of my family, they
3were partners for the family. But I have -- it
4has happened to me.
5Q. And that's been traumatizing?
6A. That's why I was worried about when the
7brothers made the threats because I've been
8through when people made a threat and stated it
9to the open, and it could potentially happen.
10So I'm watching them, like, are they going to
11make good on the threat they stated or are they
12just talking loud?
13Q. Okay. And did you try and calm the
14brothers down?
15A. I didn't want to try to approach them
16because, again, I was seated. If I had stood
17up, it could have been a sign of aggression, and
18I didn't know what could happen or what they
19were --
20Q. And that's because in your experience
21that -- when you stand up, that might be
22perceived as aggression?
23A. Yes,
24Q. and had you received any training in --
Page 182
Back to contents1as a -- as a certified security guard as to what
2you're supposed to do in that situation?
3A. In times like that, I was told stay at
4your post. Do not engage. Contact the police.
5Remain posted. Be visual, be aware. If the
6situation escalates where my life could have
7been put at risk, evacuate.
8Q. Based on your training as a -- as a
9licensed security guard, were you trained that
10you were to remain at your post and not to
11engage in hazardous situations?
12A. For that line of work, yes.
13Q. In your training at the Hermitage, were
14you trained that you were to stay at your post
15and not engage in hazardous situations?
16A. At the Hermitage, they did tell me if
17something does look off or weird, call the
18building management, let them know what's going
19on. If the situation escalates, call the
20building engineer, let him know what's going on
21so that there's another file. Make a document.
22And if it keeps going further, contact either
23the 311 number or the 911 number.
24Q. what's the 311 number?
Page 183
Back to contents1A. The nonemergency number.
2Q. Okay. Did you contact the 311 number?
3A. For which position?
4Q. For -- on the night of the 15th.
5A. The night -- I wasn’t there for --
6Q. The 15th?
7A. Oh, the 15th, the 15th. No, I was just
8too engaged in watching their movement.
9Q. So what I'm struggling is this. You're
10a licensed, certified, trained security guard,
11you've worked at the Hermitage and you've worked
12at this building.
13wasn't the entire training and
14experience that you've had in both of these
15industries the same, that when you encounter a
16hazard, you're supposed to remain in a safe
17place and not go and engage with that hazard
18even if you feel like it's okay?
19MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to the form of the
20questions and foundation.
21You can answer it.
22And it's been asked and answered many
23times.
24Go ahead, you can answer it again.
Page 184
Back to contents1THE WITNESS: If a doorman felt comfortable,
2they -- if they wanted to go and observe, it was
3possible. But if they didn't feel comfortable,
4stay at the desk.
5BY MR. BLANDIN:
6Q. what I'm asking is -- you're saying
7that was the training that you got from The
8Legacy, yes?
9A. I received that training from Adrian,
10yes.
11Q. Okay. And based on your training as a
12-- as a doorman at the Hermitage, was it the
13same or different?
14A. It was different because at the
15Hermitage, there was only one of us at the front
16desk. So for that position, I could not leave
17unless somebody was there.
18Q. Okay. Did the training that you
19received as a security guard -- as a licensed
20security guard differ from your training that
21The Legacy gave you as to what you were supposed
22to do in the event of an emergency?
23A. I'd Say yes.
24Q. How so?
Page 185
Back to contents1A. There are times where -- because I was
2trying to find a security job like that that
3involved doorman work. And security, when it
4comes to dealing with a situation that could be
5deemed hazardous or dangerous, it's always to
6observe and report.
7If -- let's say there was a fight going
8on or there was a situation, we would first
9contact the field supervisor, let them know
10about the situation that was going on. And from
11there, we would be instructed for how to move
12forward.
13Q. So what I'm focussing on is at The
14Legacy, your training that you received was that
15if you felt like it, you could go and
16investigate even if you knew it was hazardous,
17right?
18MR. GURLAND: I'm just going to object to the
19form and foundation of the question.
20But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
21can. It's been asked and answered numerous
22times now, but go ahead.
23THE WITNESS: If we felt comfortable with
24investigating the situation, if we wanted to, we
Page 186
Back to contents1could take a look. If we didn't want to, we --
2BY MR. BLANDIN:
3Q. It was left to you?
4A. Yes.
5Q. All right. But your training as a
6licensed security guard was that you should
7never go and engage a hazardous situation, once
8the police are notified, you're supposed to stay
9in a place of safety, correct?
10MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
11foundation.
12You can answer it.
13Asked and answered too.
14THE WITNESS: It is for different positions.
15But in security, the supervisor said, unless the
16threat is directed towards you, stay, observe,
17report, and if the situation has escalated to
18the point, evacuate or clear.
19BY MR. BLANDIN:
20Q. All right. Counsel asked you a
21question, he said based on your knowledge of the
22events, numerous residents asked Jonah to go up
23to the 48th floor because there was concern
24about a door being unlocked?
Page 187
Back to contents1A. Mm-hmm.
2MR. BENTIVENGA: I think that misstates my
3question, but --
4MR. BLANDIN: No, it didn't. That's why I'm
5asking --
6MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form.
7BY MR. BLANDIN:
8Q. Did you -- what residents asked Jonah
9to go to the 48th floor?
10MR. BENTIVENGA: This has been asked and
11answered. we've gone through this hours ago.
12Now we're at over three and a half hours here.
13So I'm going to object; asked and answered and
14object to the form of the question and
15foundation.
16But go ahead, you can answer it.
17THE WITNESS: I can't state for a fact who it
18was from the 48th floor that asked Jonah for
19help.
20BY MR. BLANDIN:
21Q. Okay. Your -- all right. So when your
22lawyer asked you 15, 20 minutes ago about Jonah
23being requested to go to the 48th floor, are you
24aware of anybody who requested that Jonah go to
Page 188
Back to contents1the 48th floor?
2A. I was made aware that somebody on
3Floor 48 was concerned if their door was
4unlocked or locked.
5Q. That's true -- that's a true statement.
6The Bishopps were concerned that the door was
7locked or unlocked.
8But the lawyer asked you a different
9question. He said that individuals asked to go
10and have Jonah check out, investigate that
11locked door. No one asked Jonah to go and
12investigate that door; he did that on his own,
13correct?
14MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object. That
15misstates the evidence in the case. I object to
16form and foundation.
17You can answer, if you know.
18MS. WEGNER: Join the objection.
19THE WITNESS: I don't know.
20BY MR. BLANDIN:
21Q. Yeah. In the security industry, you
22are given training as to what the policies and
23procedures are, correct?
24A. Yes.
Page 189
Back to contents1Q. When you're a doorman at The Legacy,
2there is no training on policies and procedures
3because they don't have any; is that correct?
4MR. BENTIVENGA: Object to form and
5foundation, misstates the testimony.
6Go ahead, you can answer, if you can.
7THE WITNESS: I can't say if there weren't
8any. I do believe there were some.
9BY MR. BLANDIN:
10Q. Were there any policies and procedures
11about what you, as a doorman, were supposed to
12do when there was an emergency and the police
13were called?
14MR. BENTIVENGA: Objection; asked and
15answered numerous times.
16Go ahead, you can answer it, if you
17can.
18THE WITNESS: I can't state for a fact.
19BY MR. BLANDIN:
20Q. There are none that you can recall,
21true?
22MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object. This
23has been asked and answered. Are you asking
24about written policies and procedures or the
Page 190
Back to contents1policy that he's talked about and given
2testimony about?
3I'll object to form and foundation,
4asked and answered numerous times.
5Go ahead, you can answer it, if you
6can.
7THE WITNESS: I can't answer this question.
8BY MR. BLANDIN:
9Q. Why?
10A. I don't remember what there was or
11wasn't at the time.
12MR. BLANDIN: Fair enough. That's all I
13have.
14MR. STEWART: Okay. Ricky, my name is
15Thomas. I'm going to be -- I represent some of
16Joseph -- or Abnerd Joseph's family members in a
17defamation case. I'm going to be asking you
18some questions. Same rules apply. If you don't
19know the answer to anything I ask you, just let
20me know, we'll move on.
21THE WITNESS: Okay.
22EXAMINATION
23BY MR. STEWART:
24Q. Before September 14th, 2023, did you
Page 191
Back to contents1know who Garrett Smith was?
2A. NO.
3Q. Before September 14th, 2023, had you
4ever heard anyone discuss Garrett Smith in any
5capacity?
6A. No.
7Q. Okay. I want to just be clear about
8one thing, though, today, at this point, you are
9aware that Garrett Smith shot and killed Abnerd
10Joseph, correct?
11A. I am aware of that.
12Q. All right. And am I correct that you
13first found that out when Deborah Romero told
14you that at some sort of meeting a few days
15after the shooting occurred? Is that right?
16A. Yes. Yes.
17Q. Do you recall the -- can you tell me
18with -- specific as you can be what language she
19used to describe that shooting to you?
20MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object. It's
21been asked and answered numerous times in this
22deposition.
23But go ahead, if you recall.
24THE WITNESS: I can't say at this time how
Page 192
Back to contents1the details were for the meeting over the time
2that's passed.
3MR. BLANDIN: See everybody tomorrow.
4MR. BENTIVENGA: See you, Stephan.
5(whereupon, Mr. Blandin left the
6deposition.)
7BY MR. STEWART:
8Q. Outside of that conversation with
9Deborah Romero, have you heard anyone else state
10that Garrett Smith killed Abnerd Joseph?
11A. well, yes, I did hear that. They said
12that it was -- after the meeting with Deborah,
13Garrett Smith was the one that shot Abnerd
14Joseph.
15Q. Okay. who said that?
16A. It was -- we were all sitting down in
17the meeting. And after the meeting had ended,
18that's when we were, like, so it was Garrett
19Smith that was involved and it was Abnerd Joseph
20that was. So we were kind of saying it to each
21other, like, so now we know who the individuals
22were.
23Q. Okay. So it was staff at The Legacy?
24A. Yeah, it was just staff, you know.
Page 193
Back to contents1Q. And at this meeting you're telling me
2about, that was only doormen and Deborah Smith,
3or was it more than that?
4MS. WEGNER: I think you mean Deborah Romero
5just for clarification.
6MR. STEWART: I do. Thanks.
7THE WITNESS: I can't state a clear fact at
8the time if it was just Deborah or the door
9staff or if it was Deborah and the whole staff
10team together. But --
11BY MR. STEWART:
12Q. Okay.
13A. I can't remember who else was in there.
14Q. Okay. But after that meeting -- after
15Deborah informed you that Garrett Smith killed
16Abnerd, you recall other various staff saying
17the same thing?
18MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object to
19form and foundation. It's been asked and
20answered before.
21But go ahead, you can answer it, if you
22can.
23THE WITNESS: Yeah, after the initial meeting
24was -- happened, that's when, you know, the door
Page 194
Back to contents1staff were discussing with each other, just in
2case something came up, that it was Garrett that
3was the one who had the gun and it was Abnerd
4that -- the one who had died.
5BY MR. STEWART:
6Q. Okay. After that point, have you ever
7heard anyone else say that Garrett Smith killed
8Abnerd Joseph?
9A. There were some of the staff that said
10he killed Abnerd.
11Q. Okay. And when you say "staff," we're
12talking about staff at The Legacy?
13A. Yeah, staff at The Legacy, the door
14staff at The Legacy and the maintenance staff at
15The Legacy.
16Q. Okay. Do you recall the names of any
17of those people who said to you that Garrett
18Smith killed Abnerd Joseph?
19A. No, I don't recall the name.
20Q. Okay. Can you tell me approximately
21when in relation to September 14th, 2023, those
22conversations happened?
23A. The -- so this was post meeting,
24correct?
Page 195
Back to contents1Q. Yes, sir.
2A. Okay. I would say -- I can't give a
3direct date and time. I'm sorry.
4Q. Okay. That's fine.
5Have you ever read anything saying that
6Garrett Smith killed Abnerd Joseph at any point?
7A. No, not like that.
8Q. Okay.
9A. But there was statements going online
10now because of the review for our building that
11somebody murdered somebody, you guys have a
12killer in there. There were just negative
13reviews popping up because of this.
14Q. Okay. And where were you seeing those
15negative reviews?
16A. Google reviews. when my coworker and
17the head doorman, Adrian, came back, he told me,
18with the Google reviews, this isn't looking
19good. And so --
20Q. Okay. And those were Google reviews
21that you actually read yourself that said that
22there was a murderer?
23A. They stated, how can you guys have a
24murderer in that building? No justice, no
Page 196
Back to contents1peace, no -- all of that.
2Q. Sure.
3Did any of the Google reviews that you
4read actually call Garrett Smith a murderer?
5A. NO.
6Q. Okay. Since that night, have you
7yourself ever told anyone that Garrett Smith
8killed Abnerd Joseph?
9A. No. I kept any type of information
10that was given to me about that to the building.
11I try not to tell anyone about it because, you
12know, it was -- it was a misfortunate situation.
13MR. BENTIVENGA: You answered the question.
14BY MR. STEWART:
15Q. I just want to be clear because you
16said you tried to keep that.
17It's your testimony that you've never
18told anyone at all --
19A. NO.
20Q. -- that Garrett Smith shot and killed
21Abnerd Joseph?
22A. No, I didn't bring...
23Q. Okay. I'm going to ask you about a
24series of names. I just want to know if you
Page 197
Back to contents1know any of these people.
2Do you know who Joshua Watts is?
3A. NO.
4Q. Okay. Do you know who Shantae Rayne
5Belcher is?
6A. NO.
7Q. Do you know who Wendy Bien-Aime is?
8A. No.
9Q. Do you know who Nick Joseph is?
10A. NO.
11Q. Do you know who Jeanna Joseph Kelley
12is?
13A. NO.
14Q. Do you know who Ashley Joseph is?
15A. NO.
16Q. Do you know who Bryan Bien-Aime is?
17A. NO.
18Q. Do you know who Jay Charles is?
19A. NO.
20Q. Okay. Ricky, I'm just going to tell
21you that those are all various family relations
22to Abnerd Joseph.
23If I refer to all those names
24collectively just as "Abnerd's family member,"
Page 198
Back to contents1will you know who I'm talking about?
2A. So you will just refer to them as
3Abnerd's family?
4Q. Yes, sir.
5A. Okay.
6Q. Have you ever, to your knowledge, heard
7any of Abnerd's family members say that Garrett
8Smith is a murderer?
9A. I do not remember.
10Q. To your knowledge, have you ever read
11any Statements that you attribute to any member
12of Abnerd's family saying that Garrett Smith is
13a murderer or something to that effect?
14A. I haven't seen anything like that. I
15didn't -- no, I don't remember.
16Q. Okay. Did you see Garrett Smith in the
17time after September 14th, 2023, and when you
18left your employment at The Legacy?
19A. Are you asking if I've seen him from my
20remaining time as an employee there?
21Q. That's exactly right.
22A. That's what -- yeah. I've seen him
23once walk through the lobby.
24Q. Okay. Do you recall when that was,
Page 199
Back to contents1approximately?
2A. No, I can't recall.
3Q. Okay. Did you treat Garrett Smith on
4that occasion that you saw him after the
5shooting any different than you would have
6treated any other resident?
7A. Well, no. I barely interacted with --
8I didn't know who he was at the time. I just
9simply said, hello, have a good day, and that's
10it.
11Q. I'm sorry, at the time you saw him that
12you were just describing him to me, you knew who
13he was, correct?
14A. NO, I didn't know who he was.
15Q. How is it that you know that you saw
16Garrett Smith?
17A. Because after he had walked past the
18main door with his key fob, that's when my
19coworker said, that's the guy.
20I'm like, oh, okay.
21Q. He said, that's the guy and that was
22it, and you just knew that that meant that was
23Garrett Smith?
24A. I asked him, so that’s Garrett? That's
Page 200
Back to contents1the person?
2He said, yes, that's him.
3Now I understand.
4Q. The person who killed -- you would have
5asked, that's the person who killed Abnerd
6Joseph, correct?
7MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm going to object to form
8and foundation, putting words in his mouth.
9But go ahead, you can --
10MR. STEWART: I'm asking him what he said.
11MS. WEGNER: Join in the objection.
12MR. BENTIVENGA: I get it.
13THE WITNESS: I didn't phrase it like that.
14I said, so that's Garrett?
15And he said, yes.
16Because after he said -- he first
17stated, my worker, that's the guy.
18So I said, oh, that's Garrett then?
19Yes, that's him.
20Okay. I just was acknowledging that
21that was Garrett Smith.
22-BY MR. STEWART:
23Q. Okay. At that time, had you known it
24was Garrett Smith when you immediately saw him,
Page 201
Back to contents1would you have treated him any different than
2you would any other resident or guest at The
3Legacy?
4MR. BENTIVENGA: I'm just going to object to
5form, foundation, and it's a hypothetical
6question.
7MS. WEGNER: Join in the objection.
8MR. BENTIVENGA: Go ahead, you can answer, if
9you can.
10THE WITNESS: No. In my experience with
11dealing with people that lived there, I tried to
12keep it strictly professional. I would have
13just said, hello, have a great day.
14MR. STEWART: Great. Thanks, Ricky.
15I don't have anything else.
16MS. WEGNER: I just have one quick question.
17THE VIDEOGRAPHER: Can you get near the
18microphone?
19MS. WEGNER: Yes.
20Hi, Ricky. Just a couple questions.
21EXAMINATION
22BY MS. WEGNER:
23Q. So you mentioned in response to
24Counsel's question that you had read some Google
Page 202
Back to contents1reviews about The Legacy; is that correct?
2A. Yes.
3Q. Do you remember about when you would
4have read those in relation to the incident?
5A. It was a little later when the incident
6had happened, and the lead doorman had come back
7from his vacation. And when he came back, he
8informed me, yeah, the Google reviews, it's not
9looking good, man.
10I'm, like, for the building?
11He's, like, yes, for the building.
12Q. So are we talking a period of days,
13weeks, months after the incident? Do you
14recall?
15A. Days.
16Q. Days?
17Do you recall any of the identifiers
18that were associated with those Google reviews,
19like, usernames or full names, anything like
20that?
21A. No, not at this time.
22MS. WEGNER: Thank you.
23MR. BENTIVENGA: Anybody else?
24All right. we'll reserve signature.
Page 203
Back to contentsPage 204
Back to contents1STATE OF ILLINOIS )
) SS.
2COUNTY OF COOK )
3IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF COOK COUNTY, ILLINOIS
4COUNTY DEPARTMENT - LAW DIVISION
5DELBERT J. CHARLES, )
6Plaintiff, )
7vs. ) No. 2024 L 005346
8MESA DEVELOPMENT, LLC, )
9et al, )
10Defendants. )
11I, DIEGO ENRIQUE DE LA CRUZ, being first
12duly sworn, on oath say that I am the deponent
13in the aforesaid deposition taken on the 8th of
14September, 2025; that I have read the foregoing
15transcript of my deposition, consisting of pages
161 through 203 inclusive, and affix my signature
17to same.
19____________________________
DIEGO ENRIQUE DE LA CRUZ
22SUBSCRIBED AND SWORN TO
before me this ______ day
23of __________________ 2025.
____________________________
24Notary Public
Page 205
Back to contents1STATE OF ILLINOIS )
) SS.
2COUNTY OF COOK )
4I, GINA M. SYLVESTER, Certified Shorthand
5Reporter and Registered Professional Reporter,
6do hereby certify that heretofore, to-wit, on
7the 8th day of September, 2025, DIEGO ENRIQUE DE
8LA CRUZ, appeared remotely via videoconference,
9in a cause now pending and undetermined in the
10Circuit Court of Cook County, Illinois, wherein
11DELBERT J. CHARLES, as Independent Administrator
12of the Estate of ABNERD JOSEPH, deceased is the
13Plaintiff, and MESA DEVELOPMENT, LLC, et al., is
14the Defendant.
15I further certify that the said,
16DIEGO ENRIQUE DE LA CRUZ, was first duly sworn
17to testify the truth, the whole truth and
18nothing but the truth in the cause aforesaid;
19that the testimony then given by said witness
20was reported stenographically by me in the
21presence of the said witness, and afterwards
22reduced to typewriting by Computer-Aided
23Transcription, and the foregoing is a true and
24correct transcript of the testimony so given by
Page 206
Back to contents1said witness as aforesaid.
2I further certify that the signature to
3the foregoing deposition was reserved by counsel
4for the respective parties.
5I further certify that the taking of this
6deposition was pursuant to notice and that there
7were present at the deposition the attorneys
8hereinbefore mentioned.
9I further certify that I am not counsel
10for nor in any way related to the parties to
11this suit, nor am I in any way interested in the
12outcome thereof.
13IN TESTIMONY WHEREOF: I have hereunto set
14my verified digital signature on this 23rd day
15of September, 2025.
17____________________________
18GINA M. SYLVESTER, CSR, RPR
19License No. 084-004856
Page 207
Back to contents1McCorkle Litigation Services
200 North LaSalle Street, Suite 770
2Chicago, Illinois 60601-1014
4September 23, 2025
LEWIS BRISBOIS BISGAARD & SMITH, LLP
ATTN: MR. SCOTT C. BENTIVENGA
5550 West Adams Street, Suite 300
Chicago, Illinois 60661
7IN RE: DELBERT J. CHARLES, vs. MESA
DEVELOPMENT, LLC, et al.
COURT NUMBER: 2024 L 005346
8DATE TAKEN: September 8, 2025
DEPONENT: DIEGO ENRIQUE DE LA CRUZ
10Dear Mr. Scott C. Bentivenga:
11Enclosed is the deposition transcript for the
aforementioned deponent in the above-entitled
12cause. Also enclosed are additional signature
pages, if applicable, and errata sheets.
14Per your agreement to secure signature, please
submit the transcript to the deponent for review
and signature. All changes or corrections must
15be made on the errata sheets, not on the
transcript itself. All errata sheets should be
16signed and all signature pages need to be signed
and notarized.
18After the deponent has completed the above,
please return all signature pages and errata
sheets to me at the above address, and I will
19handle distribution to the respective parties.
20If you have any questions, please call me at the
phone number below.
22Sincerely,
Cindy Alicea GINA M. SYLVESTER
23Signature Department Court Reporter
(312)263-0052
24cc: ALL COUNSEL OF RECORD
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